There are probably more variables on whether to go for it on 4th down than my geezer brain can process. It's basically a 'where' and 'when' problem. When in the game, and where on the field we're at when one makes the choice. I would think that having a good kicker and a good Defense would, in general, increase the 4 down territory a bit. For 4th and short, the "Tush Push" (with Byron, a former RB turned D-line Godzilla, carrying the ball?) or a 'Tush Action Play' (show'm the "Tush" when they load the box then give'm a sweep?) can be VERY effective...at least in MY imagination!
I'm not too worried about either the missed tackles or the pass distribution. I think both will sort themselves out. When you have two rookies as a regular part of your passing game (Horton and Arroyo) there's bound to be an acclimation period, and game plans will evolve and change as needed. I can't imagine a Mike MacDonald defense being a bad tackling team, so that problem will get addressed, at least to the extent an aggressive defense can get addressed. Some of those are 'cost of doing business' misses, and some are just bad angles or tackling form. The 2023 Ravens had a missed tackle rate of around 11%, so that's about what I'd expect. More important is the yards allowed off of missed tackles. The 2023 Ravens were at a very good 4.5, but the Seahawks are at a too high 7.0. It's one thing to miss a tackle but funnel the player to your teammates so they can clean things up, it's another to miss a tackle when there is no immediate help coming.
I feel pretty good about the Tampa game coming up. It will be tough, as the Bucs are solid on both sides of the ball. But 3 of their 4 games have been against Atlanta, Houston, and the Jets, before last weeks loss to the Eagles. So I'm not sure how much I'd weigh the value of their offensive and defensive rankings just yet. They've got solid o-lines and d-lines though, so that alone will make things tough.
We are among the highest missed tackles and lowest among YAC allowed. How can both be true? I'm not seeing our CBs going into stutter-steps 5 yards away from the receiver anymore, giving up 1st downs and long marches to TDs. Mike has first-man-up attacking the runner, not looking to be sure someone is there for follow-up. That is now a Given. Gang tackling is the rule, not the exception.
How do you feel about Barner ? I think we could/should use him more as a receiving option. He’s not putting big numbers but I feel he has been « consistent » in each games, has sure hands and did a pretty good job with its 2 touchdowns receptions.
I recall Pete telling Russ how to get us a first off a 4th down. Russ asked "How about a TD?" Pete says "Yeah. That'll work", then went nuts when he saw him going deep. It was fun watching his wild mood swing. Prozac moments...
The reason the Lions and the Eagles are so successful on 4th downs is because they have good Olines! We have Bradford at RG. who just got a perfect blocking score for the devastating blocks he laid on Claude Raines, the Invisible Man! Consequently, our opponents DCs can predict we have to run to our left and they can act accordingly.
I think the passing percentages will equal out as the season progresses. Also, some good recievers always become available when bad teams move on from higher paid WR. that don't fit their rebuilding plans.
Our former vastly unappreciated starting QB. Geno Smith threw 3.more picks in one game. There are already murmers a foot in Raider nation !
I heard Kelce at Center for Philly was the heartbeat for the butt-pushing 1st's success. My bet is natural grass fields would be a huge advantage. You can literally dig in.
I understand McDonald’s hesitancy going for it on 4th down with the defense he has put together.
It seems to me like this next game is the type of game that we will break a “good team.” Like we will win, and then they will lose their next 4. It seems like every year we do it to some unsuspecting dupe.
I'm taking to noting how teams do the week after playing us. Knowing you kicked ass is a big win in American Trench Football, no matter the outcome. I heard Big Cat got after a rookie for getting chatty with an opponent.
Nah, on the mist tackles. It depends on the Coach. MM wants the first contact to be going straight in at missile speed, expecting a deluge will soon follow on. Forces the receiver to commit, along with sizing himself up for a leg cast. Especially true with Spoon. Gone are the days on Pete's defense watching Tre Flowers start his stationary quick-step 5 yards off the reciever. Never mind all the first downs given up with the 10 yard cushions to stop any "explosive" plays. Just chewed us up over the middle. Let the defense rest.
"There’s good reason to believe that players and coaches need to be experienced well before they have to go against the Lions and Eagles for the most high-pressured play of their entire season in the playoffs! Now is the best time to start to get comfortable with those intense situations."
Yes ... 100% agree with this. I would add, the players (and coaches) need to not overthink these 4th downs. Calm down and execute the play. Which goes hand in hand with this comment of experience. Secondly, don't do anything crazy. We know that we will not get all the 4th down attempts and that is OK. It's funny when announcers claim, "Punt the ball and trust your defense" ... why not "Go for the 4th down and trust your defense as a plan B"?
JSN
I thought the last game was decent in usage. It reminded me of a star basketball player. Try to get other guys involved early. But when the game is on the line who do you turn to? JSN (Best Player).
I've always felt the same...if you truly believe in your defense then go for it and trust your defense. Now, that being said...don't go and get all aggressive and leave your defense in a terrible position that's tough for anyone to defend.
Yes ... definitely a line to try and figure out what is best. I am not too worried as I think MM just wants a little more consistency from the run game and then they will go for it more.
Not impressed with our ends for the most part. Lawrence and Chenna get paid too much for average play. Mafe reminds me of kids I coached that were new to football. There was a sight delay in actions because they are still processing info. I'm surprised Hall hasn't taken a big leap, I thought he was gonna be one of the dudes that broke out.
I have been wondering the same thing. Kupp does not seem to have much left. Horton does not the ball often enough ; but he is a rookie and probably a limited route book. That leaves us with a rookie TE and Bobo.
There is not much out there to help as a lot of teams in light of the injuries on other teams. The ones that are available seem to have a significant injury history or ineffective.
I'm seeing a whole lot of success with competent TEs, FBs and Bobo. Why put their moves on tape right now? Arrowyo is said to have enough speed to be an X receiver, so there's a replacement for Jax, along with an extra 100 pounds. Hell let him soften up the backfield a bit. Make them shy off Kupp, being so old and stuff.
Seeing Arroyo getting targeted on that deep route that drew the DPI penalty in the endzone was awesome. Great play call by KK, route by EA and pass by SD. I like that he's out there running routes downfield and not just waiting in the flat for dump-off passes. I hope week 4 was just the beginning of a trend that has more and more targets going to Arroyo.
Cody White filled in admirably last year, so we have him as depth at least
There are probably more variables on whether to go for it on 4th down than my geezer brain can process. It's basically a 'where' and 'when' problem. When in the game, and where on the field we're at when one makes the choice. I would think that having a good kicker and a good Defense would, in general, increase the 4 down territory a bit. For 4th and short, the "Tush Push" (with Byron, a former RB turned D-line Godzilla, carrying the ball?) or a 'Tush Action Play' (show'm the "Tush" when they load the box then give'm a sweep?) can be VERY effective...at least in MY imagination!
I'm not too worried about either the missed tackles or the pass distribution. I think both will sort themselves out. When you have two rookies as a regular part of your passing game (Horton and Arroyo) there's bound to be an acclimation period, and game plans will evolve and change as needed. I can't imagine a Mike MacDonald defense being a bad tackling team, so that problem will get addressed, at least to the extent an aggressive defense can get addressed. Some of those are 'cost of doing business' misses, and some are just bad angles or tackling form. The 2023 Ravens had a missed tackle rate of around 11%, so that's about what I'd expect. More important is the yards allowed off of missed tackles. The 2023 Ravens were at a very good 4.5, but the Seahawks are at a too high 7.0. It's one thing to miss a tackle but funnel the player to your teammates so they can clean things up, it's another to miss a tackle when there is no immediate help coming.
I feel pretty good about the Tampa game coming up. It will be tough, as the Bucs are solid on both sides of the ball. But 3 of their 4 games have been against Atlanta, Houston, and the Jets, before last weeks loss to the Eagles. So I'm not sure how much I'd weigh the value of their offensive and defensive rankings just yet. They've got solid o-lines and d-lines though, so that alone will make things tough.
We are among the highest missed tackles and lowest among YAC allowed. How can both be true? I'm not seeing our CBs going into stutter-steps 5 yards away from the receiver anymore, giving up 1st downs and long marches to TDs. Mike has first-man-up attacking the runner, not looking to be sure someone is there for follow-up. That is now a Given. Gang tackling is the rule, not the exception.
The good news is that the Seahawk defense is 2nd in the NFL at 4.5 yards allowed per play, in spite of the yards allowed off of missed tackles.
One thing about rocketing missed tackles is you learn how to get better at it. There's no check-lists. Just Do It.
Re. JSN getting more receptions. It could be that he is just the best at getting open when he needs to.
How do you feel about Barner ? I think we could/should use him more as a receiving option. He’s not putting big numbers but I feel he has been « consistent » in each games, has sure hands and did a pretty good job with its 2 touchdowns receptions.
I think MM is keeping him a secret right now.
Hard to believe that Pete Carroll is one the coaches that favors going for it on forth down. I thought he avoided that when he was here?
I recall Pete telling Russ how to get us a first off a 4th down. Russ asked "How about a TD?" Pete says "Yeah. That'll work", then went nuts when he saw him going deep. It was fun watching his wild mood swing. Prozac moments...
I don't recall hearing that story before, that's a good one.
Big big fun watching Pete. One second he is Pissed! and the next jumping up and down laughing.
Isn’t that hilarious?
Always compete! Even the 70something year old looking for new edges.
The reason the Lions and the Eagles are so successful on 4th downs is because they have good Olines! We have Bradford at RG. who just got a perfect blocking score for the devastating blocks he laid on Claude Raines, the Invisible Man! Consequently, our opponents DCs can predict we have to run to our left and they can act accordingly.
I think the passing percentages will equal out as the season progresses. Also, some good recievers always become available when bad teams move on from higher paid WR. that don't fit their rebuilding plans.
Our former vastly unappreciated starting QB. Geno Smith threw 3.more picks in one game. There are already murmers a foot in Raider nation !
I heard Kelce at Center for Philly was the heartbeat for the butt-pushing 1st's success. My bet is natural grass fields would be a huge advantage. You can literally dig in.
I understand McDonald’s hesitancy going for it on 4th down with the defense he has put together.
It seems to me like this next game is the type of game that we will break a “good team.” Like we will win, and then they will lose their next 4. It seems like every year we do it to some unsuspecting dupe.
I'm taking to noting how teams do the week after playing us. Knowing you kicked ass is a big win in American Trench Football, no matter the outcome. I heard Big Cat got after a rookie for getting chatty with an opponent.
Seems like in the legion of boom days the week after playing us that team usually lost because they were so beat up.
I hate prevent D. All it seems to do is prevent one from winning.
Boy Howdy.
We could always flip Woolen back to receiver? Dude could take the top off so easy.
hmm, That's a thought.
Nah, on the mist tackles. It depends on the Coach. MM wants the first contact to be going straight in at missile speed, expecting a deluge will soon follow on. Forces the receiver to commit, along with sizing himself up for a leg cast. Especially true with Spoon. Gone are the days on Pete's defense watching Tre Flowers start his stationary quick-step 5 yards off the reciever. Never mind all the first downs given up with the 10 yard cushions to stop any "explosive" plays. Just chewed us up over the middle. Let the defense rest.
"There’s good reason to believe that players and coaches need to be experienced well before they have to go against the Lions and Eagles for the most high-pressured play of their entire season in the playoffs! Now is the best time to start to get comfortable with those intense situations."
Yes ... 100% agree with this. I would add, the players (and coaches) need to not overthink these 4th downs. Calm down and execute the play. Which goes hand in hand with this comment of experience. Secondly, don't do anything crazy. We know that we will not get all the 4th down attempts and that is OK. It's funny when announcers claim, "Punt the ball and trust your defense" ... why not "Go for the 4th down and trust your defense as a plan B"?
JSN
I thought the last game was decent in usage. It reminded me of a star basketball player. Try to get other guys involved early. But when the game is on the line who do you turn to? JSN (Best Player).
More room to grow but so much better than Game 1.
I've always felt the same...if you truly believe in your defense then go for it and trust your defense. Now, that being said...don't go and get all aggressive and leave your defense in a terrible position that's tough for anyone to defend.
Yes ... definitely a line to try and figure out what is best. I am not too worried as I think MM just wants a little more consistency from the run game and then they will go for it more.
How about no shotgun on 4th? ;)
More AJ tush push
I am for that.
Not impressed with our ends for the most part. Lawrence and Chenna get paid too much for average play. Mafe reminds me of kids I coached that were new to football. There was a sight delay in actions because they are still processing info. I'm surprised Hall hasn't taken a big leap, I thought he was gonna be one of the dudes that broke out.
I have been wondering the same thing. Kupp does not seem to have much left. Horton does not the ball often enough ; but he is a rookie and probably a limited route book. That leaves us with a rookie TE and Bobo.
There is not much out there to help as a lot of teams in light of the injuries on other teams. The ones that are available seem to have a significant injury history or ineffective.
So… hope for the best
I'm seeing a whole lot of success with competent TEs, FBs and Bobo. Why put their moves on tape right now? Arrowyo is said to have enough speed to be an X receiver, so there's a replacement for Jax, along with an extra 100 pounds. Hell let him soften up the backfield a bit. Make them shy off Kupp, being so old and stuff.
Seeing Arroyo getting targeted on that deep route that drew the DPI penalty in the endzone was awesome. Great play call by KK, route by EA and pass by SD. I like that he's out there running routes downfield and not just waiting in the flat for dump-off passes. I hope week 4 was just the beginning of a trend that has more and more targets going to Arroyo.
Judicious allocation. I feel like sounding smart today. I was stupid yesterday.
It's good to trade off days like that. Keep people guessing.
Good idea that would make sense