Ken, that was a great article. Your writing style is engaging and the content of the article was comprehensive and well thought out. It touched all bases necessary to get your point across to a Seahawk fanatic but was coherent enough to for a layman to comprehend. In this day and age where any Potato can construct a blog it is nice to read a well written feature that really gets to the meat of our beloved ‘Hawks!
Seattle could well have one of the better young tackle groups in the league with this years draft and Forsythe and Curhan from last year. I don't think Cross or Lucas will have any trouble run blocking and we already know they can pass block under Leach. Seattle has really tried to make the offensive line solid with the additions of Lewis, Jackson and Blythe along with the last two drafts. Haynes and Fuller I'm not sure about as far as depth. Haynes seems injury prone and Fuller just didn't play that well at center. He may be a better guard. I think Seattle may have found a diamond in the rough as far as a young center prospect. UDFA Shamarious Gilmore. He has played mostly guard (no center), some tackle out of Georgia State but seems to have the right makeup for a Shane Waldon / Dickerson style center. I was reading Corbin's Smith's take 3 of rookie training camp and he lists his short shuttle nearly the same as Coby Bryant's at 4.39 and his bench reps at 36. He's 302, 6'1", has over 4000 snaps in college, has demonstrated sound character and leadership qualities and good football IQ in his college career. I believe he started 51 games so he has been durable and was first team Sun Belt conference the last two years, but recognized all his years in his conference. Tyler Linderbaum the top center this year has 31 1/8" arms, Gilmore lists 32 and 1/2". He chose to use an extra year of eligibility so he is older coming into the league. Gilmore was not invited to the combine. I' be interested to see how he does in camp and pre-season.
Cross is the real deal at LT and I think the coaching staff will make him even better. I also think he could be a really good fit in Waldon's scheme. I think Seattle will add a guard in next years draft to solidify the line. It's been a long time since Seattle has had this promising of a young offensive front.
The question in my mind has always been this: Since it’s so hard to find an LT after the early first round, why be in such a hurry to move on from Russell Okung, especially when his market didn’t materialize?* And shouldn’t there be a better Plan B than George Fant and Bradley F. Sowell? In the event, Russell almost tore up his knee running for his life, which is likely when he began to lose confidence in PCJS.
And a team *should* be able to build the rest of its OL in rounds 2-4. That’s not going to happen by drafting the likes of Justin Britt, Ethan Pocic, and Reese Odhiambo. It also isn’t going to happen when you give up on the one pick that worked out (Mark Glowinski). And let’s not get into passing on JJ Watt and Ryan Ramczyk in order to amass draft capital and get the steal that was Malik McDowell.
OK, sometimes drafts don’t work out. Doesn’t that mean that you should change the way you approach free agency, especially when the 2016-2017 drafts were intended to be foundational? One way or another, PCJS failed to build an offensive line when their franchise QB was in his in his mid-20s, and instead exposed him to serious injury.
*Okung took a lot of flack for agreeing to an incentive-based contract. My of my career has been in risk management, and my conclusion at the time was that he knew what he was doing and would wind up several million dollars ahead of what an agent would have gotten.
Hindsight is always 20/20. McDowell likely would have been a monster in the middle and could have added many sacks from the inside. He messed up and ruined his career. It doesn’t mean he didn’t have potential to be a game changer on defense. I think the program could have straightened him out, had he not gotten hurt so soon after the draft.
As for the tackles, when you draft between 26-32, there are no sure bets at tackle. That’s why, despite the conventional wisdom (fan groupthink), Fant was exactly what we needed to do. He had the physical tools, feet, and frame to develop into a top LT. The expectations of the fan base wouldn’t allow the time to get results and fans and RW insisted they get a proven LT. Once Duane was signed, Fant stopped getting reps. George is now a top 10 LT, giving up fewer sacks and pressures than Duane. Investing in developing talent is what you must do if you pick that late. By pick 15, all “nfl ready” tackles are gone. Each year, there is only 1-3 LTs that have the floor and ceiling to step in and play.
As Seaside points out, McDowell had red flags plastered all over him. That’s why a top 10 talent dropped to the second round. But PCJS knew better than everyone else. Drafting McDowell was arrogance, pure and simple.
As for Fant, it took three years to develop him, at which point they let him move on. If you’re going to sign up for a project, you have to have the nerve to see it through. In any case, it’s one thing to go with a project if you are building a team from the bottom up—it’s another to expose your franchise QB when you are still trying to contend. But, again, they knew better.
It does appear that PCJS were humbled, either by the slide to mediocrity or by Jody Allen. Whatever the cause, I’ll take it.
There might be some arrogance, but it was more like playing roulette. They traded down to accumulate picks, then pushed their bigger chip on a corner, where the odds of hitting were lower, but the potential payoff was higher, then used the other picks to make some smaller gambles. It was a ballsy move, but it didn’t pay off.
As for Fant, he was developing fine. I think trading for Duane was a move to appease Russ, not giving up on the project. However, once Duane was there, the project was essentially over. That was another example of going for the short term fix, rather than building for the long term. That’s not to slight Duane, who has been solid and playing longer than expected, but pushing back on the pressure and sticking with Fant may have been better long term. It will be interesting to get the behind the scene stories once all of the people involved are gone. I think most fans will be shocked at how many personnel moves were done at the request of #3, and how many players were seen as worse than they actually were to protect his ego. The list of people blamed for sacks and poor performance is long. It includes 3 offensive coordinators, every OL who has suited up, Doug Baldwin & Lockett (one year, the receivers were blamed for sacks, because they “weren’t getting separation), Tom Cable, Pete, you name it. All of this to protect the feelings/ego of one player. A franchise QB should be able to deal with a developing line. Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, and plenty others have worked around poor line play by quick passes and play action. Russ could have done the same, except he doesn’t like short, quick outs. He would rather get chased around looking for the big play than take a 5-7 yard gain.
Okung took an incentive-based contract because he was sitting out games "injured", got called out on it via his contract offers, and that was the only way he was going to make the money he wanted. The team had to protect itself from Okung not playing due to "injury". Seattle was right to move on from that type of character.
🗿If that’s your view of Okung, sure. I tend to believe these guys when they say that they are hurt. Anyway, his last two years in Seattle, Okung started 27 of 32 games.
As for the contract, an agent would have negotiated a so-called one-year “prove it” deal, which at the time would have been between $5-6M with half guaranteed. The incentive contract Okung negotiated wound up paying $8M (with $1M guaranteed). He risked ~$1.5M for what became a $2-3M gain with no agent fee. This was an easy risk to take because, as a member of the last rookie class that was slotted, he already had career earning of $40M. The next year was a better market for OTs, and Okung negotiated a 4/$53M deal with San Diego. He eventually retired with career earnings of $109M, most of which he negotiated himself. Okung knew what he was doing.
I prefer to compare Okung to the player drafted 2 spots ahead of him. Trent Williams. Not much of a comparison there is there? Now that's the kind of LT you lament losing.
OFFENSIVE LINE quickly building TEAMWORK and CHEMISTRY . Weird thought of Ursua showing 5 offensive linemen VS ANY 5 Seahawks how to race across lake Washington in Hawaii Five-0 style dugouts. ( I really need to stop napping with the TV on ! )
Nailed it. Pete/John's draft performance is about average for a team consistently drafting in the latter half of every round. They are above average for impact UFDAs. Belichick is a fine coach but would he be the GOAT if Tom Brady had only played to his draft position? You can say the same for Pete with Russell Wilson but Pete also has a decade of college dominance on his resume. My only criticism of Pete/John is their record in high profile trades. Under the radar transactions have netted the likes of Quandre Diggs for a 5th or Chris Clemons and a 4th for Daryl Tapp but big strikes have resulted in Percy Harvin, Sheldon Richardson, Jimmy Graham, and Jamal Adams. Remove those trades and the huge capital expended and John looks like a genius.
You never really get a true perspective how big/large these linemen stand, until I saw both Pete and John introducing Charles Cross at a Seahawk interview to the public. WOW... they both looked like Jr High School boyz standing on either side of Cross !! I remember reading many years ago that the really good top talented OL men (worth drafting) are few in number every year. They are the first to go at the top of the first round. In the past, its been rare for the Seahawks to draft that high in the first round. I'm happy with the two OLTackles the Seahawks recently drafted.
I appreciate your research. Will be the corner stone of 'O-line' foundation for years to come. Lots of confidence in his run blocking abilities. Let's do it!
DK Metcalf is the poster player for Talking.Head stupidity! He was downgraded because he " couldn't run the complete route tree." Really? You can teach a wide out the route tree, but you can't teach 6'4, 235 lbs , 4.3 40 with 2% body fat! In the immortal words of Forest Gump, " stupid is as stupid does".
Ken, that was a great article. Your writing style is engaging and the content of the article was comprehensive and well thought out. It touched all bases necessary to get your point across to a Seahawk fanatic but was coherent enough to for a layman to comprehend. In this day and age where any Potato can construct a blog it is nice to read a well written feature that really gets to the meat of our beloved ‘Hawks!
Sorry about the typo “to”. Again, Great Article!
Seattle could well have one of the better young tackle groups in the league with this years draft and Forsythe and Curhan from last year. I don't think Cross or Lucas will have any trouble run blocking and we already know they can pass block under Leach. Seattle has really tried to make the offensive line solid with the additions of Lewis, Jackson and Blythe along with the last two drafts. Haynes and Fuller I'm not sure about as far as depth. Haynes seems injury prone and Fuller just didn't play that well at center. He may be a better guard. I think Seattle may have found a diamond in the rough as far as a young center prospect. UDFA Shamarious Gilmore. He has played mostly guard (no center), some tackle out of Georgia State but seems to have the right makeup for a Shane Waldon / Dickerson style center. I was reading Corbin's Smith's take 3 of rookie training camp and he lists his short shuttle nearly the same as Coby Bryant's at 4.39 and his bench reps at 36. He's 302, 6'1", has over 4000 snaps in college, has demonstrated sound character and leadership qualities and good football IQ in his college career. I believe he started 51 games so he has been durable and was first team Sun Belt conference the last two years, but recognized all his years in his conference. Tyler Linderbaum the top center this year has 31 1/8" arms, Gilmore lists 32 and 1/2". He chose to use an extra year of eligibility so he is older coming into the league. Gilmore was not invited to the combine. I' be interested to see how he does in camp and pre-season.
Cross is the real deal at LT and I think the coaching staff will make him even better. I also think he could be a really good fit in Waldon's scheme. I think Seattle will add a guard in next years draft to solidify the line. It's been a long time since Seattle has had this promising of a young offensive front.
The question in my mind has always been this: Since it’s so hard to find an LT after the early first round, why be in such a hurry to move on from Russell Okung, especially when his market didn’t materialize?* And shouldn’t there be a better Plan B than George Fant and Bradley F. Sowell? In the event, Russell almost tore up his knee running for his life, which is likely when he began to lose confidence in PCJS.
And a team *should* be able to build the rest of its OL in rounds 2-4. That’s not going to happen by drafting the likes of Justin Britt, Ethan Pocic, and Reese Odhiambo. It also isn’t going to happen when you give up on the one pick that worked out (Mark Glowinski). And let’s not get into passing on JJ Watt and Ryan Ramczyk in order to amass draft capital and get the steal that was Malik McDowell.
OK, sometimes drafts don’t work out. Doesn’t that mean that you should change the way you approach free agency, especially when the 2016-2017 drafts were intended to be foundational? One way or another, PCJS failed to build an offensive line when their franchise QB was in his in his mid-20s, and instead exposed him to serious injury.
*Okung took a lot of flack for agreeing to an incentive-based contract. My of my career has been in risk management, and my conclusion at the time was that he knew what he was doing and would wind up several million dollars ahead of what an agent would have gotten.
Hindsight is always 20/20. McDowell likely would have been a monster in the middle and could have added many sacks from the inside. He messed up and ruined his career. It doesn’t mean he didn’t have potential to be a game changer on defense. I think the program could have straightened him out, had he not gotten hurt so soon after the draft.
As for the tackles, when you draft between 26-32, there are no sure bets at tackle. That’s why, despite the conventional wisdom (fan groupthink), Fant was exactly what we needed to do. He had the physical tools, feet, and frame to develop into a top LT. The expectations of the fan base wouldn’t allow the time to get results and fans and RW insisted they get a proven LT. Once Duane was signed, Fant stopped getting reps. George is now a top 10 LT, giving up fewer sacks and pressures than Duane. Investing in developing talent is what you must do if you pick that late. By pick 15, all “nfl ready” tackles are gone. Each year, there is only 1-3 LTs that have the floor and ceiling to step in and play.
As Seaside points out, McDowell had red flags plastered all over him. That’s why a top 10 talent dropped to the second round. But PCJS knew better than everyone else. Drafting McDowell was arrogance, pure and simple.
As for Fant, it took three years to develop him, at which point they let him move on. If you’re going to sign up for a project, you have to have the nerve to see it through. In any case, it’s one thing to go with a project if you are building a team from the bottom up—it’s another to expose your franchise QB when you are still trying to contend. But, again, they knew better.
It does appear that PCJS were humbled, either by the slide to mediocrity or by Jody Allen. Whatever the cause, I’ll take it.
There might be some arrogance, but it was more like playing roulette. They traded down to accumulate picks, then pushed their bigger chip on a corner, where the odds of hitting were lower, but the potential payoff was higher, then used the other picks to make some smaller gambles. It was a ballsy move, but it didn’t pay off.
As for Fant, he was developing fine. I think trading for Duane was a move to appease Russ, not giving up on the project. However, once Duane was there, the project was essentially over. That was another example of going for the short term fix, rather than building for the long term. That’s not to slight Duane, who has been solid and playing longer than expected, but pushing back on the pressure and sticking with Fant may have been better long term. It will be interesting to get the behind the scene stories once all of the people involved are gone. I think most fans will be shocked at how many personnel moves were done at the request of #3, and how many players were seen as worse than they actually were to protect his ego. The list of people blamed for sacks and poor performance is long. It includes 3 offensive coordinators, every OL who has suited up, Doug Baldwin & Lockett (one year, the receivers were blamed for sacks, because they “weren’t getting separation), Tom Cable, Pete, you name it. All of this to protect the feelings/ego of one player. A franchise QB should be able to deal with a developing line. Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, and plenty others have worked around poor line play by quick passes and play action. Russ could have done the same, except he doesn’t like short, quick outs. He would rather get chased around looking for the big play than take a 5-7 yard gain.
Okung took an incentive-based contract because he was sitting out games "injured", got called out on it via his contract offers, and that was the only way he was going to make the money he wanted. The team had to protect itself from Okung not playing due to "injury". Seattle was right to move on from that type of character.
🗿If that’s your view of Okung, sure. I tend to believe these guys when they say that they are hurt. Anyway, his last two years in Seattle, Okung started 27 of 32 games.
As for the contract, an agent would have negotiated a so-called one-year “prove it” deal, which at the time would have been between $5-6M with half guaranteed. The incentive contract Okung negotiated wound up paying $8M (with $1M guaranteed). He risked ~$1.5M for what became a $2-3M gain with no agent fee. This was an easy risk to take because, as a member of the last rookie class that was slotted, he already had career earning of $40M. The next year was a better market for OTs, and Okung negotiated a 4/$53M deal with San Diego. He eventually retired with career earnings of $109M, most of which he negotiated himself. Okung knew what he was doing.
I prefer to compare Okung to the player drafted 2 spots ahead of him. Trent Williams. Not much of a comparison there is there? Now that's the kind of LT you lament losing.
OFFENSIVE LINE quickly building TEAMWORK and CHEMISTRY . Weird thought of Ursua showing 5 offensive linemen VS ANY 5 Seahawks how to race across lake Washington in Hawaii Five-0 style dugouts. ( I really need to stop napping with the TV on ! )
Nailed it. Pete/John's draft performance is about average for a team consistently drafting in the latter half of every round. They are above average for impact UFDAs. Belichick is a fine coach but would he be the GOAT if Tom Brady had only played to his draft position? You can say the same for Pete with Russell Wilson but Pete also has a decade of college dominance on his resume. My only criticism of Pete/John is their record in high profile trades. Under the radar transactions have netted the likes of Quandre Diggs for a 5th or Chris Clemons and a 4th for Daryl Tapp but big strikes have resulted in Percy Harvin, Sheldon Richardson, Jimmy Graham, and Jamal Adams. Remove those trades and the huge capital expended and John looks like a genius.
Absolutely do not let Charles near an ATV...
I never knew any of Cross's history. He would have practiced a lot of run blocking in his freshman year. Very interesting, thanks !
You never really get a true perspective how big/large these linemen stand, until I saw both Pete and John introducing Charles Cross at a Seahawk interview to the public. WOW... they both looked like Jr High School boyz standing on either side of Cross !! I remember reading many years ago that the really good top talented OL men (worth drafting) are few in number every year. They are the first to go at the top of the first round. In the past, its been rare for the Seahawks to draft that high in the first round. I'm happy with the two OLTackles the Seahawks recently drafted.
I appreciate your research. Will be the corner stone of 'O-line' foundation for years to come. Lots of confidence in his run blocking abilities. Let's do it!
DK Metcalf is the poster player for Talking.Head stupidity! He was downgraded because he " couldn't run the complete route tree." Really? You can teach a wide out the route tree, but you can't teach 6'4, 235 lbs , 4.3 40 with 2% body fat! In the immortal words of Forest Gump, " stupid is as stupid does".