Wait a minute - so now Schneider is absolved because the Center class is not good? HA! What about the years upon years he refused to address Center or the line at all? If the line has the same performance as last year, he needs to be gone. Get someone in here more responsible.
Now they tell us that Christian Haynes is still a year away. According to Seahawks.com, Here’s what draft analysts said last year after the draft:
Chad Reuter (NFL): “Christian Haynes will start as a rookie for the Seahawks due to his athleticism and toughness.”
Danny Kelly (The Ringer): “The Seahawks lacked a second-round pick (used to trade for Leonard Williams last season), but got great value in the third round with offensive guard Christian Haynes, a plug-and-play starter at a position of need.”
Fox Sports: “Connecticut offensive lineman Christian Haynes should fight for time along the starting offensive line.”
Pete Prisco (CBS): “I do like third-round guard Christian Haynes, who fills a need."
Mel Kiper: “Christian Haynes (81) could be an instant starter.”
Schneider can’t control the talent available or what people write about it. But couldn’t the Hawks’ own website do a better job of setting expectations? The coaching staff knew—I’m guessing from the get-go—that Haynes was work-in-progress, not plug-and-play. It’s hard to knock fans for being disappointed that Haynes was not an instant starter.
I can’t disagree. We’ve heard the coaching thing before, too. Remember when Tom Cable was touted as the best offensive line coach in the NFL?
I want to be wrong. But as of 4/3/2025, I can’t think of a single reason why I should have any confidence that Schneider can build a credible OL.
BTW, Hugh Millen says that since 2010, Seattle has (a) invested more draft capital in the OL than any other team and (b) has the lowest return. He sourced his conclusions, too.
*points at my own OLine breakdown from a week or so ago*
Olu has it in him. Sundell has more issues to me and maybe longer term can fix those to be a starter. But the two for now are fine for us, provided we fix the glaring weak spot at LG - where there is much more talent in the draft.
I appreciate this article more than any in recent history. Draft and develop. That's what the best NFL teams do to realize consistent success. Free agency is a 'finisher' to add the missing sizzle on an already solid group. I think what Seattle did this year is what needed to be done for a number of years, and that's bring in the right offensive system, with a group of coaches that have years of experience in it, and years of experience coaching offensive lineman to success. If our two tackles stay healthy this year, I believe we will be better on offense than last year.
John will add more talent to the o-line in the draft, at tackle or guard, or both. But it's what happens AFTER they get in the building that will matter the most. If he drafts a defensive weapon in the 1st round instead of an o-lineman, I'd be absolutely fine with that.
I think Knight is a great example of what happens with great coaching. Many people were poo-poo'ing the pick after the draft, and that was a 4th round pick, not a 1st rounder. And he ends up playing awesome by the end of the year. Draft the talent, and then coach them into being players. That's the recipe.
Side note. Been preaching this too. No one thinks about coaching these guys up. Benton has been coaching since Coach Mac was in diapers. Keep trying to point this out. As Shaymus pointed out from your article. Why draft at all if you’re not going to give a kid a chance.
Thank you thank you. Been saying this everywhere. College on the whole isn’t preparing college kids to play at NFL level. Studs at any position will just be there. The vast majority, skill positions so much easier than OLine. Great great quote about Haynes and OLine. Olu Rimington winner. Will take that over everyone in this draft. Will someone shine like 6th rounder Kelce did for Philly? Maybe. But so rare. Love this. Finally got the article that was needed. What we saw the most was inconsistency due to not having same set of guys for every game. Give me 5 guys with good coaches who start from first of camp, and you have an avg line.
Two thoughts about training & conditioning, and further proof that all my ideas come from listening to other people. (1) I keep hearing about legendary strength & conditioning programs at Michigan, Penn State, Georgia, and, presumably, some other big schools. That does explain some of the disparity we see at least early on with small college players. But... (2) I also ran onto a comment from, I think, the Bootleg Football guys, that suggests another layer. They were talking about the William & Mary tackle, Charles Grant, and both identified a specific hand use trait which they traced back to a particular coach. Not a college coach, but one of many, I suspect, who guys train with in the off season. Which means there are cadres of OL working together, outside team structures, regularly. That seems particularly worth noting because it's the kind of information NFL teams would presumably have access to. So it would be useful to know who players CHOOSE to work with in the off-season, and what traits/techniques those coaches favor. And, of course, I'm sure phone calls to those off-season coaches can also be tolerably productive, though they will always want their students to elevevate. Not sure what to do with that, past sharing. We know QBs do that, after all.
The common theme here is that there just aren't many guys coming out of college with the strength and conditioning required to play NFL O-Line. No matter how much film you watch, their college tape will always be against guys that aren't NFL-strong. We end up with guys that look good technically, like Haynes, and guys that look good athletically, like Laumea, but rarely guys who prove to check both boxes right away. Even Charles Cross, a top ten pick, has had to transform his body over the first three years in the NFL to become a consistently good enough type of player. It's a tough world out there for GMs and rookie O-Linemen.
I’ve wondered if the “squatting” Lucas would need to do would be good on inside. I’ve only coached youth so don’t know that answer. Seems Abe maybe isn’t suited for inside. But agree with your thinking. And yes I do believe OT, or 2 with one moving inside is likely by JS.
Question: Is it impossible to acquire late round huge/strong backups that suck at wide zone & pass pro but can drive a pile back? Like maybe Bradford can be in this mold? I'm concerned our lighter-faster linemen will continue to be bullied on 3rd/4th & short.
I’ll go one further: Given everything here, why give up on Bradford as a starter? Put another way, why give up on a 6’5”, 332lb, 23-year old guard with 33.5” arms heading into his 3rd season?
Zabel is said to be a good fit for center. I don't know if we will get him, and I am with most people here who are happy for Olu to get another year to improve. I kind of hope we can trade down to the end of the first round and still get Zabel, but I hope they stick him at LG, and leave center alone for now.
A while ago I looked at the stability of the OL of the Eagles. They’ve had almost zero churn. It would be interesting to chart OL stability vs whatever offensive stats are interesting.
What we don’t know is causation. Does stability itself make the OL successful, or do great players lead to stability and success?
Sticking with Olu and company might be exactly the right non-move. Churning for a player who is ten percent better on paper might actually be a 20% step backwards. (Then again, with a full staff reset on the offensive side of the ball, today is the day to churn for stability in the years to come.)
If my stability hypothesis is right, maybe replacing Lucas is an important goal. Injuries can cause as much churn as does a GM. Good, reliable players might be more valuable than the new, shiny star.
I keep pointing that out. Are Eagles even in SB if they started 2 C’s, 3 RG’s and 4 RT’s? Doubt it. They need to work as a unit. People rip Laumea for some plays. What I saw was a rookie RG that didn’t know how to play next to Lucas at times. Lucas “hands-off” his guy to Laumea but he wasn’t prepared or whatever and Geno was pressured. And we then say these guys are “junk”? No sorry.
Great article, again! OL generally take a few years to get up to NFL level standards. That's why I don't agree with so many comments that look to scrap all our OL players who are just 2yrs into their careers. Like SJ said, "If the Seahawks are supposed to give up on players after two bad seasons, what’s the point to drafting any offensive linemen?".
I get everybody wants the team to win, but the microwave-level patience and knee-jerk decisions are what makes the bad organizations bad, and they are also what makes some fans insufferable.
Won’t speak for the other “microwavers” out there but my own level of impatience comes from Schneider’s unwillingness to bring in a real NFL iOL while the development is underway, and his unwillingness to pay what it costs to have a competent OL once they’re developed. But IS willing to throw massive resources at a Percy Harvin or Jimmy Graham or Jamal Adams.
Want to play a developing center and a developing guard at the same time, without getting your QB killed and having your RB’s constantly met in the backfield? Then don’t make your other guard Laken Tomlinson (not picking on him specifically, he’s just one example of several).
Also don’t keep flipping OC’s and OL coaches if your strategy is patient development of these future OL studs. Give them some stability.
And once you’ve finally developed a few of these guys to the point where other teams covet them (finding at least competent OL talent isn’t just a Seattle issue), how about keeping the guys you’ve now developed (again, assuming development is the strategy). Why is Damien Lewis starting in Carolina (6’2” 330lbs w/33” arms and 10” hands, who was a 2-yr starter on an SEC national champion) and Ethan Pocic starting in Cleveland (6’6” 320lbs w/33”arms and 10” hands who was a 3-yr starter in the SEC)? 3rd round (69) and 2nd round (58) that you picked and you developed but then when they hit Year 4 (which is when they’re really going to hit their stride), you watch ‘em walk and go back to Square One again?? Can’t figure out the cap, even when you’re not paying the big bucks to a QB? WTF was the point of all the development then??
Words and the pictures need to match. And in Seattle under Schneider (and Carroll no doubt) they haven’t, since the Unger trade. It’s not a development strategy, it’s a “make-do” strategy. iOL is not where he’s going to spend his draft capital (probably) or his cap capital (definitely).
That’s from 15 yrs of observing John Schneider. Goddam slow microwave.
...you watch ‘em walk and go back to Square One again??...
I think it ties into your other thought where JS over pays for other positions. I'm hoping JS learns his lesson, if we've drafted well and Developed well, let's ensure we have a plan to keep them in house.
My reference to impatience was directed towards wanting to get rid of OL we have and draft all new ones to begin the process again. I do agree with many of your points, and I think your examples of players starting elsewhere are exactly what I was thinking of in my comment. We should have resigned most of those guys, I think. That would be the patience I would like JS to have shown. Again, I see him as being in his 2nd solo season, like you gave a nod to with the Carroll mention. So, we're mostly aligned, I believe.
Fair criticism's. The only counter-point I would make is that JS is spending draft capital on iOL, just look who he's added the last 2 years. I'd agree he hasn't recently bagged a top-notch experienced iOL recently, but like this year, not for lack of trying. I think your best point is the one I've made before, and that is that we seem to have our prospects go to other teams and play better. That has to stop. We need to be able to develop them to be better, and as you point out, then pay them to stay.....at least some of the time.
I like that we want to develop players and get them the reps needed, but we still need to use our best judgement as to whether those lineman can eventually grow into a capable NFL player. I don't see Laumea or Jerrell or Sundell or Haynes as those guys. I think we need to raise the bar and expect more. Watching old reruns of Seattle playing SF with a trip to the super bowl on the line and our o line just dominated SF. We shoved those little punks all over the place. It was so nice to see that line dominate. Wish we could get back to that. Maybe I'm wrong and the new regime will get the most out of the current roster, but I'm not holding my breath.
Really you were all for Paul MCQuistan and Brent and Defensive Tackle, JR Sweezy? Carp drafted as a tackle moved to guard. Only top draft pick ready for action was Max.
Walt was one of those absolute studs that you just know. But do rare. Hutch was still that rare first rounder but yes. Like Glowinski. We let him go too early (had Carp if I remember correctly). He goes on to be great at Indy. And yesterday’s article about Rutledge and the comments about him. This time next year, if he has same inconsistency’s that was written about him, I can just see fans saying how bad JS is in drafting when nearly every fan mock I’ve seen has him or Zabel. They need time.
Take this same approach with every position and every potential draft pick. Who in the first round could we draft that could start right now at OL, at corner, at DE/edge, even at TE? The list is short...I'm almost thinking corner is going to be a high priority. There might not be three or four corners who could start right now and beat out one of our existing combo of Woolen and Jobe with any kind of certainty. There are a few guards/tackle converts that could start most likely, same with DE/edge- there are a few maybe. I just don't see a ton of starting caliber talent in this draft. I hope we can find a couple starters, and if we do find two starters I hope they are LG and corner. If you take a corner in round 1 I'm hoping it's Barron. If you get a guard at 50 I'm going for Donovan Jackson or maybe Jonah Savaiinaea (assuming Zabel is long gone). This whole draft is so wonky. It's giving me heartburn.
Wait a minute - so now Schneider is absolved because the Center class is not good? HA! What about the years upon years he refused to address Center or the line at all? If the line has the same performance as last year, he needs to be gone. Get someone in here more responsible.
Now they tell us that Christian Haynes is still a year away. According to Seahawks.com, Here’s what draft analysts said last year after the draft:
Chad Reuter (NFL): “Christian Haynes will start as a rookie for the Seahawks due to his athleticism and toughness.”
Danny Kelly (The Ringer): “The Seahawks lacked a second-round pick (used to trade for Leonard Williams last season), but got great value in the third round with offensive guard Christian Haynes, a plug-and-play starter at a position of need.”
Fox Sports: “Connecticut offensive lineman Christian Haynes should fight for time along the starting offensive line.”
Pete Prisco (CBS): “I do like third-round guard Christian Haynes, who fills a need."
Mel Kiper: “Christian Haynes (81) could be an instant starter.”
Schneider can’t control the talent available or what people write about it. But couldn’t the Hawks’ own website do a better job of setting expectations? The coaching staff knew—I’m guessing from the get-go—that Haynes was work-in-progress, not plug-and-play. It’s hard to knock fans for being disappointed that Haynes was not an instant starter.
I believe we're being fed a line of bullshit. He created this mess, and now he's gaslighting the fanbase? I call BS.
I can’t disagree. We’ve heard the coaching thing before, too. Remember when Tom Cable was touted as the best offensive line coach in the NFL?
I want to be wrong. But as of 4/3/2025, I can’t think of a single reason why I should have any confidence that Schneider can build a credible OL.
BTW, Hugh Millen says that since 2010, Seattle has (a) invested more draft capital in the OL than any other team and (b) has the lowest return. He sourced his conclusions, too.
*points at my own OLine breakdown from a week or so ago*
Olu has it in him. Sundell has more issues to me and maybe longer term can fix those to be a starter. But the two for now are fine for us, provided we fix the glaring weak spot at LG - where there is much more talent in the draft.
Almost like JS and MM know what they're doing
I appreciate this article more than any in recent history. Draft and develop. That's what the best NFL teams do to realize consistent success. Free agency is a 'finisher' to add the missing sizzle on an already solid group. I think what Seattle did this year is what needed to be done for a number of years, and that's bring in the right offensive system, with a group of coaches that have years of experience in it, and years of experience coaching offensive lineman to success. If our two tackles stay healthy this year, I believe we will be better on offense than last year.
John will add more talent to the o-line in the draft, at tackle or guard, or both. But it's what happens AFTER they get in the building that will matter the most. If he drafts a defensive weapon in the 1st round instead of an o-lineman, I'd be absolutely fine with that.
I think Knight is a great example of what happens with great coaching. Many people were poo-poo'ing the pick after the draft, and that was a 4th round pick, not a 1st rounder. And he ends up playing awesome by the end of the year. Draft the talent, and then coach them into being players. That's the recipe.
All of this makes me think that Schneider really really really screwed up by not drafting Creed Humphrey.
Side note. Been preaching this too. No one thinks about coaching these guys up. Benton has been coaching since Coach Mac was in diapers. Keep trying to point this out. As Shaymus pointed out from your article. Why draft at all if you’re not going to give a kid a chance.
Thank you thank you. Been saying this everywhere. College on the whole isn’t preparing college kids to play at NFL level. Studs at any position will just be there. The vast majority, skill positions so much easier than OLine. Great great quote about Haynes and OLine. Olu Rimington winner. Will take that over everyone in this draft. Will someone shine like 6th rounder Kelce did for Philly? Maybe. But so rare. Love this. Finally got the article that was needed. What we saw the most was inconsistency due to not having same set of guys for every game. Give me 5 guys with good coaches who start from first of camp, and you have an avg line.
Good linemen take time to develop. Great linemen start as good linemen. Our current O line can be decent this year, and good in 26.
Of course that’s in my rose-colored imaginings.
Two thoughts about training & conditioning, and further proof that all my ideas come from listening to other people. (1) I keep hearing about legendary strength & conditioning programs at Michigan, Penn State, Georgia, and, presumably, some other big schools. That does explain some of the disparity we see at least early on with small college players. But... (2) I also ran onto a comment from, I think, the Bootleg Football guys, that suggests another layer. They were talking about the William & Mary tackle, Charles Grant, and both identified a specific hand use trait which they traced back to a particular coach. Not a college coach, but one of many, I suspect, who guys train with in the off season. Which means there are cadres of OL working together, outside team structures, regularly. That seems particularly worth noting because it's the kind of information NFL teams would presumably have access to. So it would be useful to know who players CHOOSE to work with in the off-season, and what traits/techniques those coaches favor. And, of course, I'm sure phone calls to those off-season coaches can also be tolerably productive, though they will always want their students to elevevate. Not sure what to do with that, past sharing. We know QBs do that, after all.
The common theme here is that there just aren't many guys coming out of college with the strength and conditioning required to play NFL O-Line. No matter how much film you watch, their college tape will always be against guys that aren't NFL-strong. We end up with guys that look good technically, like Haynes, and guys that look good athletically, like Laumea, but rarely guys who prove to check both boxes right away. Even Charles Cross, a top ten pick, has had to transform his body over the first three years in the NFL to become a consistently good enough type of player. It's a tough world out there for GMs and rookie O-Linemen.
Teams can get by with a weak center if the guards are strong. One of the reasons I suspect moving Lucas with his knee issues inside
So, draft a RT and guard ?
I’ve wondered if the “squatting” Lucas would need to do would be good on inside. I’ve only coached youth so don’t know that answer. Seems Abe maybe isn’t suited for inside. But agree with your thinking. And yes I do believe OT, or 2 with one moving inside is likely by JS.
Question: Is it impossible to acquire late round huge/strong backups that suck at wide zone & pass pro but can drive a pile back? Like maybe Bradford can be in this mold? I'm concerned our lighter-faster linemen will continue to be bullied on 3rd/4th & short.
I’ll go one further: Given everything here, why give up on Bradford as a starter? Put another way, why give up on a 6’5”, 332lb, 23-year old guard with 33.5” arms heading into his 3rd season?
Pretty sure why Stone was drafted.
I think that's where the sixth OL lineup comes into play? And/or our mythical fullback.
Zabel is said to be a good fit for center. I don't know if we will get him, and I am with most people here who are happy for Olu to get another year to improve. I kind of hope we can trade down to the end of the first round and still get Zabel, but I hope they stick him at LG, and leave center alone for now.
A while ago I looked at the stability of the OL of the Eagles. They’ve had almost zero churn. It would be interesting to chart OL stability vs whatever offensive stats are interesting.
What we don’t know is causation. Does stability itself make the OL successful, or do great players lead to stability and success?
Sticking with Olu and company might be exactly the right non-move. Churning for a player who is ten percent better on paper might actually be a 20% step backwards. (Then again, with a full staff reset on the offensive side of the ball, today is the day to churn for stability in the years to come.)
If my stability hypothesis is right, maybe replacing Lucas is an important goal. Injuries can cause as much churn as does a GM. Good, reliable players might be more valuable than the new, shiny star.
I keep pointing that out. Are Eagles even in SB if they started 2 C’s, 3 RG’s and 4 RT’s? Doubt it. They need to work as a unit. People rip Laumea for some plays. What I saw was a rookie RG that didn’t know how to play next to Lucas at times. Lucas “hands-off” his guy to Laumea but he wasn’t prepared or whatever and Geno was pressured. And we then say these guys are “junk”? No sorry.
Great article, again! OL generally take a few years to get up to NFL level standards. That's why I don't agree with so many comments that look to scrap all our OL players who are just 2yrs into their careers. Like SJ said, "If the Seahawks are supposed to give up on players after two bad seasons, what’s the point to drafting any offensive linemen?".
I get everybody wants the team to win, but the microwave-level patience and knee-jerk decisions are what makes the bad organizations bad, and they are also what makes some fans insufferable.
It’s a matter of expectations. See my comment below.
Won’t speak for the other “microwavers” out there but my own level of impatience comes from Schneider’s unwillingness to bring in a real NFL iOL while the development is underway, and his unwillingness to pay what it costs to have a competent OL once they’re developed. But IS willing to throw massive resources at a Percy Harvin or Jimmy Graham or Jamal Adams.
Want to play a developing center and a developing guard at the same time, without getting your QB killed and having your RB’s constantly met in the backfield? Then don’t make your other guard Laken Tomlinson (not picking on him specifically, he’s just one example of several).
Also don’t keep flipping OC’s and OL coaches if your strategy is patient development of these future OL studs. Give them some stability.
And once you’ve finally developed a few of these guys to the point where other teams covet them (finding at least competent OL talent isn’t just a Seattle issue), how about keeping the guys you’ve now developed (again, assuming development is the strategy). Why is Damien Lewis starting in Carolina (6’2” 330lbs w/33” arms and 10” hands, who was a 2-yr starter on an SEC national champion) and Ethan Pocic starting in Cleveland (6’6” 320lbs w/33”arms and 10” hands who was a 3-yr starter in the SEC)? 3rd round (69) and 2nd round (58) that you picked and you developed but then when they hit Year 4 (which is when they’re really going to hit their stride), you watch ‘em walk and go back to Square One again?? Can’t figure out the cap, even when you’re not paying the big bucks to a QB? WTF was the point of all the development then??
Words and the pictures need to match. And in Seattle under Schneider (and Carroll no doubt) they haven’t, since the Unger trade. It’s not a development strategy, it’s a “make-do” strategy. iOL is not where he’s going to spend his draft capital (probably) or his cap capital (definitely).
That’s from 15 yrs of observing John Schneider. Goddam slow microwave.
...you watch ‘em walk and go back to Square One again??...
I think it ties into your other thought where JS over pays for other positions. I'm hoping JS learns his lesson, if we've drafted well and Developed well, let's ensure we have a plan to keep them in house.
My reference to impatience was directed towards wanting to get rid of OL we have and draft all new ones to begin the process again. I do agree with many of your points, and I think your examples of players starting elsewhere are exactly what I was thinking of in my comment. We should have resigned most of those guys, I think. That would be the patience I would like JS to have shown. Again, I see him as being in his 2nd solo season, like you gave a nod to with the Carroll mention. So, we're mostly aligned, I believe.
Fair criticism's. The only counter-point I would make is that JS is spending draft capital on iOL, just look who he's added the last 2 years. I'd agree he hasn't recently bagged a top-notch experienced iOL recently, but like this year, not for lack of trying. I think your best point is the one I've made before, and that is that we seem to have our prospects go to other teams and play better. That has to stop. We need to be able to develop them to be better, and as you point out, then pay them to stay.....at least some of the time.
These guys don’t suddenly get better. What’s irritating is that the Seahawks are doing the development work of other teams for them.
I like that we want to develop players and get them the reps needed, but we still need to use our best judgement as to whether those lineman can eventually grow into a capable NFL player. I don't see Laumea or Jerrell or Sundell or Haynes as those guys. I think we need to raise the bar and expect more. Watching old reruns of Seattle playing SF with a trip to the super bowl on the line and our o line just dominated SF. We shoved those little punks all over the place. It was so nice to see that line dominate. Wish we could get back to that. Maybe I'm wrong and the new regime will get the most out of the current roster, but I'm not holding my breath.
Really you were all for Paul MCQuistan and Brent and Defensive Tackle, JR Sweezy? Carp drafted as a tackle moved to guard. Only top draft pick ready for action was Max.
...and Walter Jones. Even Hutchinson took some time, and he is a HOFer
Walt was one of those absolute studs that you just know. But do rare. Hutch was still that rare first rounder but yes. Like Glowinski. We let him go too early (had Carp if I remember correctly). He goes on to be great at Indy. And yesterday’s article about Rutledge and the comments about him. This time next year, if he has same inconsistency’s that was written about him, I can just see fans saying how bad JS is in drafting when nearly every fan mock I’ve seen has him or Zabel. They need time.
Take this same approach with every position and every potential draft pick. Who in the first round could we draft that could start right now at OL, at corner, at DE/edge, even at TE? The list is short...I'm almost thinking corner is going to be a high priority. There might not be three or four corners who could start right now and beat out one of our existing combo of Woolen and Jobe with any kind of certainty. There are a few guards/tackle converts that could start most likely, same with DE/edge- there are a few maybe. I just don't see a ton of starting caliber talent in this draft. I hope we can find a couple starters, and if we do find two starters I hope they are LG and corner. If you take a corner in round 1 I'm hoping it's Barron. If you get a guard at 50 I'm going for Donovan Jackson or maybe Jonah Savaiinaea (assuming Zabel is long gone). This whole draft is so wonky. It's giving me heartburn.
Why I semi laugh at all these mocks. And why I think DB is a strong possibility. Makes sense.