As I have said many times - It isn't the best athlete at QB that makes the best QB, but the guy with decision making skills that happen NOW! I do believe when and if the O-line can get healthy and have a couple of games together the play of the O will definitely improve. I would also assume with the better O-line play the O will get better. I am also in the camp of wondering what Waldren is doing about half the time, with the play calling inside the 10 and especially inside the 5! I am sure they are working the film and trying to get Geno to read the D maybe more before the snap, and wish he would or be allowed to check out of plays, don't see allot of that happening! If it doesn't improve ,maybe Drew Lock needs to get a shot to Actually see what he's got or doesn't have-
I’m not gonna talk Geno because what is there left to say.
I am dead spot on with the last item SSJ mentioned, “why can’t the Seahawks get Walker into space?” Other teams always find a way to scheme their special players into space. Yet the Hawks just hand it to Walker behind bad blocking, requiring him to run 18 yards to gain 2.
Oct 21, 2023·edited Oct 21, 2023Liked by Seaside Joe
With at least 6 1st round picks., next years QB class is the best in decades , I think the Hawks trade up and use Lock as a bridge and release Geno. He has been barely adequate since the 2nd half of last year. Could Lock do much worse?
Geno has what one scout describes as slow eyes. He holds the ball too long if the 1st or 2nd options are covered. In short ,Geno is a good back up, nothing more.
I think the 3rd down and red zone failures are partially due to Waldron 's predictable play calling and his bizarre personel groupings.
With better QB play and a better OC, the Hawks have the talent to be SB contenders.
The question of whether Russ made Pete look good or visa versa has been answered by the Broncos
We'll see what happens with the draft class, but I am getting to the point of needing a first round QB pick just for the sake of trying something dramatically different if nothing else. But also because it could be the best move.
Carrol says Geno is the best QB on the Hawks team. Geno gives them the best chance to win. When that belief changes I’m confident Carrol will make the change. In the meantime if there is a QB they like at any point in the draft next Spring I believe they will draft him and give him a shot at improving the position.
You can trash or praise almost anyone’s performance any week you want. I watched P. Mahomes miss two throws to wide open receivers in the flat, last week, as well as toss an interception all in the same game. Trash him or praise him?
I tried to make the same point last week. It just seems to be the world we live in. People love to tear other people down. I'm glad Pete is not that coach.
On a not entirely unrelated note, for those that haven't read Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink, you should. There's a lot that goes into making split second decisions, and there are many factors that lead to good decisions and bad decisions. Personally I think Geno is 'sped up' because his trust of the o-line isn't there. His focus, perhaps, is too much on potential danger, and not enough on what he sees in the defense. Hopefully the coaches can help him with that. Getting the o-line healthy again won't hurt.
Haynes: I think it would do good to look at PFF Grades (I'm very critical of those, it's the eye test of some interns, but still an eye test and we're not looking at them in isolation) and ESPN Blocking win rates (tracking data, objective), and tape for the games he played on the right side.
If you did so, you'd see he is highly graded in both venues (again, right side, excluding the Bengals game). He's together with Landon Dickerson the only interior linemen to be top-10 in win rates both pass and run blocking.
Haynes is more than fine, he's one of the best today, with little help. He played out of position and turned out a bad game. Left and right are not interchangeable.
I'm a big fan of olive oil. I put it in everything. When in high school or so (late middle? early college?) I hurt my right hand in a way that I could still write, but could not drizzle from a oil container. It took me a few days to properly serve with my left hand, I developed ways and moves. And this is for something as trivial as pouring oil out of a can.
I've been 90% with you regarding Geno, but you've been completely unfair with Haynes. If you want to bash him, "can't remain healthy" is the most you can say.
If you talk to many Pro O-linemen Actually college as well) they will tell you it is the rare duck that can actually switch sides! When the guys that have actually played the game say that I tend to believe them-
Those cases are set pieces, and practiced specifically. And run blocking is much more proactive than pass protection, meaning that live reps are not as essential.
Suppose your holder is your emergency QB (quite common in old times). He will be bad at quarterbacking, but that doesn't mean you should not have trick plays when the holder stands up and throws.
Geno was a long-time back-up for a reason. He's fine, like most back-ups. To see him miss reads, miss throws, make poor calls etc shouldn't be surprising when you consider his body of work or career. Geno is playing about as well as could be expected. There are two issues from this: 1) The Wk1-5/6 stretch last year made a lot of believers he could be more. 2) A bridge/transition QB needs a plan to be replaced after one season. Pete will stick with Geno through the season in belief, that's fine, it should keep us in playoff contention. And it was smarter to wait for the 2024 QB draft than reach for someone in 2023.
My big issues continues to be Waldron. It's why i'm rolling back my "'Hawks for the 2024 superbowl" belief. The inability to scheme up any sort of worrying run threat from KW3 & Charbs, the unwillingness to use JSN like an actual receiver. A beat up OLine is not an excuse, it should be expected as I can't think of a single NFL OLine coming into week 6 that isn't banged up
We're here for this season. It'll be somewhat competitive. My fear is that Pete see this being close and doesn't understand the deeper issues. Then we'll run it back in a similar fashion and repeat, as we have done in marginally different forms since 2015/6. I hope the rest of the staff, especially John, can make him see and understand the full picture and commit to some potentially big and scare swings. [Because i keep saying it, this team isn't bad now at all, it can still get into the playoffs. But I don't want that, i'd rather swing and try to win it all. We laugh at the bad years for the 49ers and Rams, but i'd rather be a fan facing lows to enjoy the highs, than bobbing in a mask of mediocraty]
Seems I can count on one hand how many times a Pete Carroll team has "put away" a game. His guys play to keep it close, at best winning and at worst, making an exciting exit. It certainly garnered a lot of MNF invitations. ($$$)
Yeah, hate seeing people use the OL as an excuse. Every team would love to have the best OL and best OL depth in the NFL, but that's just not realistic. If it all falls apart with a few injuries (which we know is probable for most players eventually), then what's the point of anything? The only thing that mitigates those injury issues is either great QB, great coaching, or both. It would be a lot easier to try a new QB at this point...I'm not gonna go on any limbs for Drew Lock, but people should be able to at least say the first part without it meaning that it has to be Lock.
Again for me , at least, it comes down to the understanding that with out quality on the O-line the so-called skill players are just frosting. No offense can function properly without at least an adequate O-line. Look at Buffalo , there O-line is playing horribly. Josh Allen can't do everything. They did have a decent O-line and let guys go and obviously haven't replaced them! Just One example!
Alright, one more, because I read it and it bugged so much I had to comment, but this paragraph is pretty much just nonsense:
"If they don’t, Seattle is basically reliant on the other team screwing up more times than they screw up. The Seahawks needed OT to beat the Lions despite winning the turnover battle, 3-0. The Seahawks beat the Giants 24-3 with a 3-0 turnover margin, but the game didn’t turn until Devon Witherspoon’s pick-six, otherwise the score was nearly 14-10 going into the fourth quarter against a team that was starting Bethune-Cookman backups on the offensive line."
The Lions are one of the best teams in the NFC, the Seahawks played their asses off to beat them, on the road, in a hostile environment, with backup tackles on the OL. The fact that it went to OT and the Seahawks won is great because the week leading up to this game was many Seahawks fans assuming it was a fait accompli. The same Giants team took on the Buffalo Bills on SNF, a team many predicted as Super Bowl competitors, and almost beat them. The Bills didn't own the Giants the way the Seahawks did, didn't even lead until late in the 4th quarter, otherwise they were trailing most of the game. At home. In Buffalo. I don't see how it can be bad to be beating the Giants 14-3 AND then get a pick six but somehow you've made that bad? Yes, the Giants nearly scored a TD before Witherspoon got the ball, but isn't that on the defense? Geno didn't get the TD on the previous drive but he also didn't miss a FG and turn it over to the Giants with solid field position.
The week before that, the goddamn Niners were only leading the same Giants squad by a single score, 20-12, at the END of the third quarter, at home in Santa Clara. I think we all agree the Niners are LOADED with talent, they are the consensus NFC Super Bowl team. I'm happy to read the article pointing out the Seahawks are clearly much better than the Niners and Bills based on how all three played the Giants, but that would be a dumb take so I don't know how it really matter that the Seahawks were only beating the Giants 14-3 before the Pick Six. Yeah the Giants are bad, but they're still an NFL team, Any Given Sunday, and the Seahawks still creamed them worse than literally any other team they've played this season. That entire paragraph I quoted is apples meeting oranges and realizing they're not the same variety of fruit.
I feel like the rush to condemn Geno is starting to lose some perspective, which is supremely disappointing because I'm subscribed to you for just that: perspective.
I may have read Joe’s perspective different than you read it:
- Geno is a good QB. Is he a good enough QB? His perspective is, maybe we should start asking ourselves that question
- Seattle ranks 30th in 3rd down conversion %, a down where the QB’s (Joe’s hypothesis) increasingly are relevant. Not a great light in Geno
- Seattle is 21st in red zone conversion %, made worse by 4 trips/zero conversions vs the Bengals which cost Seattle that game, a situation where again Joe’s perspective is the QB is disproportionately important. Not a great light on Geno.
- Geno is prob good enough to get us to the playoffs, believe Joe has always said there aren’t 20 QB’s better than him. He pointed out that his rolling full season of games was north of 4000yds and a 2:1 TD to Int ratio, that’s definitely good. But can Seattle advance in the playoffs if they rank last in 3rd down conversions and last in red zone %, among playoff teams?
- As to the fantastic wins you highlight, perhaps there are other explanations than that Geno is a conference championship level QB. Seattle ranks 10th in turnover differential and that’s with one less game than most of the teams ahead of them. Seattle leads the NFL in rushing defense. Seattle ranks 4th in sacks/game and 2nd in pressure %.
Remember that Russell Wilson fella? Im 2013 he wasn’t the reason they killed Denver, was the defense, so much so that they had to pick SOMEONE from the defense for MVP (for my money KamBam). Firm believer that the reason for that passing play instead of handing off to Marshawn was “Russell MVP”-driven — cuz no question if Marshawn pounds in that TD, he’s Super Bowl MVP.
What I’m saying is (from my understanding of Joe’s perspective) is Geno is a good QB but not good enough when we hit the playoffs. And that he hasn’t been for quite a long time. And that bc of that Seattle may be wasting a Super Bowl-level offensive arsenal and the best defense it’s had in at least 6 years.
Joe sure doesn't seem angry with Geno the way some of the commenters come in hot against Joe. That anger strikes me as personal, and it's not what I expect here. The fun of this place is what you say...it's perspective and makes for interesting discussion and shouldn't invite arguments.
As I say, there's nothing personal about this. I would love nothing more than for Geno Smith to be a great QB. I just can't say that he is, when he isn't, just because he's Seattle's QB.
I think Morgan Freeman said something like, “Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I hate you.” SSJ welcomes comments from people who differing opinions. Some of us may just have to deal with that.
I'm just reading that paragraph as pointing out that the Hawks offense is struggling to score points, and that a couple of wins were made more likely by opportunities (or actual points) created by the defense. The Lions are pretty good. The Giants defense is pretty good. The Seahawks are not executing their offense all that well and it's showing up in the stats and on the scoreboard. It doesn't need to mean anything more than that.
Thanks, Grant. It only took Kenny about 6,000 daily newsletters before I finally found a paragraph I took offense with. The discourse this week has really worn me down and I need a break from all of it.
JT sees a lot of things but did JT have anything to say about the offensive line or the QB pressures? I didn't see his video so I can only go off what you're saying but I'd think relative to this game that at least noting the OL issues would have more merit to the outcome of the game than the formations Waldron called, which is certainly interesting but not a top takeaway I would have expected.
I point this out because while fans certainly have their opinions on Geno, I've invested my own effort into looking at a variety of commentary about this game and so far I don't find a lot of knowledgable people agreeing that Geno was so bad we should go to Defcon 2 and start Drew Lock, something I'm still not remotely enthused by no matter how many random people I see call for it.
Pete Carroll often refers to the 4-5 plays that you have to make (or stop) to win a game. JT does a good job of breaking down the opportunities missed that cost the Seahawks the game. The whole question of "Is Geno good enough?" now has an answer: No, he is not.
We don't know if Lock can do better, but honestly it is time to find out--now. And if not, then we know what the Seahawks must do in the 24 off season: find a QB who can take this team to the next level.
I think that ultimately the Browns game has to be the turning point: If the Browns do Browns things against the Seahawks offense, it could get very ugly. If Geno steps up, by all means, keep him out there. I have even said that I don't think Pete will make a change any time soon and probably not even this season, that's such a dramatic move for Pete Carroll to bench a QB. Did he even do that with Tarvaris Jackson? But in the offseason, I don't see the argument against going hard after an upgrade.
FWIW, KJ Wright thought the play-calling was fine. We probably shouldn’t be surprised that an offense that has trouble converting third downs gets conservative on second-and-short.
I’ve been a sports fan for over sixty years. It’s my experience that when writers and fans explain offensive deficiencies as about anything but the QB (“it’s the line; it’s the play-calling; it’s DK; it’s not playing Charbonnet enough”), they are avoiding the issue. *All* of those could have been true on Sunday and the Seahawks would still have beaten Cincinnati with better QB play. On the other hand, expecting none of them to be issues strikes me as missing the point. Lines *will* struggle at times, and not every play will be the right call. That’s why good QBs are precious—they make it so that none of that makes a difference.
It's funny, Paul. Fans complained about the OL (and sometimes the WRs, and often the RBs) of the Seahawks for 10 years, but Russell Wilson was constantly good. And I don't forget that Wilson also had REALLY BAD games and REALLY BAD quarters within games. It does happen to all QBs. But what I see missing from Geno is REALLY GOOD games, especially in the last 15 or so contests. If the Seahawks don't beat one of the worst teams in the NFL in Week 1 of the 2022 season and get fans so excited about "Russ revenge" (at a time when many thought the Broncos were a good team), does Geno Smith have this much support? If you flipped last season and the Seahawks started 3-6 with their offensive output, would Pete have made a change?
There's so much talent on this offense. I do not understand the Geno stans (am I using that word right?) online and on every podcast I listen to. They rebuke all slander towards our quarterback. Sure, the protection was terrible. And I don't think Lock could win more games. But the best version of Geno is a top 8 NFL quarterback and we haven't seen that from him in ...a year. I know play calling and protection are big factors and not every mistake was on Geno. But a lot were. I don't even have JTs premium channel but I did watch the game twice. This offense should be dynamic.
I may disagree with people that feel Geno Smith is "great" or whatever, but I never throw out the name calling and "they're not real fans" like I see from people who take offense to the accusation that Geno isn't that great. If he's what some people are comfortable with, so be it.
I hate seeing this turn into bipartisan politics (remember, 50/50 vote at field gulls if Geno should be benched now or in the near future) and this is exactly why I feared Seattle committing to a Derek Carr-level QB.
I'm thinking Geno has vision problems and is keeping it quiet, knowing it will retire him. Being Pete hired THE BEST QB coach to be had at any time, this should not be a mystery, so I'm probably wrong. But it does beg the question what this Coach has been doing. Maybe his focus is on Lock? His claim to fame is training back-ups... Furthermore, I am not a bit sorry for being hard on my expectations. After the last game last year, we were watching the Team claim "next year" is THE year. Geno said he must elevate. He hasn't done it, thus, the vision problem theory. No doubt, the stress is huge, adding to marginal issues. Maybe the Contract demands they wait until exceeding the stats is out of the question. He should have sat out the second half of the NYG game. What? He is telling Lock he's better injured than Lock will ever be. That would bother anyone.
Could be that, but I also think that Geno became too risk averse based on the fact that he was benched and never allowed to return to the starting gig until landing in an incredibly fortunate situation with Seattle many years after the Jets. He turns down throws that might be a little riskier, he throws with no anticipation, he waits too long and then takes awful sacks, and to me this all adds up to a guy who is afraid to be seen as the problem. But when you've got 3 or 4 touchdown opportunities that you miss because of being risk averse and then lose 17-13, that's a problem.
For me “the year” is 2024 bc this year’s stellar rookie class will have its sophomore leap and 2022’s class will be rounding into Pro Bowl form. Not to say Super Bowls can still be won by the Dilfers and Flaccos and Foles of the world.
For my 2 cents worth, I’ve never believed Geno was/is a long-term option. I think a QB is on the cards next draft.
And I still stand by my belief that, although he’s been ripped off a few times by not being passed to, and also being passed to while covered, DK still needs to be benched when he carries on like a pork chop. I think Bobo should be given the chance when that happens, if not more often. As I’ve said before, he hasn’t done anything wrong that I can think of, and he’s been productive - so give him more opportunity.
If you're going to bench DK, just trade him. Seems like as soon as you bench him, you create a trade block situation and lower his trade value. If I'm the coach/GM, the trade comes before the bench. DK isn't changing his stripes, he's said that very clearly.
I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure I agree.
If you’ve got time, I have a little story. I was once playing on a cricket team. I was the wicket keeper and considered myself ok with the bat. As the season went on, I wasn’t really concentrating on the batting and wasn’t making a lot of runs, though I still thought I was doing enough to stay middle order.
When finals came, the captain/coach put me at the bottom of the order. If you know cricket, this is usually reserved for your worst batters (usually bowlers). This made me feel surprised, embarrassed, mad and disappointed all at the same time. And I felt like I’d let the team down.
We lost that game and we’re out of contention that year. I told myself that that was never going to happen again. So the next season I worked extra hard on my batting and gradually worked my way back up the order. By the end of the year, I had made my first 100 for the club and was opening the bat in the one-day games. The following season I was second in the entire competition for batting average.
It wasn’t a benching, but it was close enough. I just think it could have the same affect on DK. If it does - look out! If it doesn’t - we’ll maybe he does need to go coz his attitude really does suck.
Wow, great review, eyes are opening. Yeah, with that many open receiver oppotunities it shows how much we've missed. It does seem like 2nd 'n 1 or 2 to go is much better than 1st 'n 10. Utilize!
The "criticisms" leveled on this Site have been well reasoned and meant to urge Geno to relax, enjoy playing and show everyone, especially himself, what he can do. The 12s have spent years watching promising talent fall into a fugue. We simply smell repeats of past results, knowing how best to deal with them from our own work challenges. I have find it best to turn and face my fears directly, realizing 90% of what we fear never materializes. Go bang out your best performances, Boyz. I can root for that. To hell with anyone causing you to compromise. Maybe this is what DK is trying to say?
Tide could be slowly turning, Charley. I'm rooting for Geno to do better because he's the QB, but think we know who he is now and that's never going to change so am worried how this offense will look against some great defenses lined up on the schedule.
I think he has more value if we know who he is (and isn't). Maybe, just maybe, we'll start running more and he can manage the game. After all, if he's a good backup level player, then shouldn't we gameplan and use him like he is a good backup player?
As I have said many times - It isn't the best athlete at QB that makes the best QB, but the guy with decision making skills that happen NOW! I do believe when and if the O-line can get healthy and have a couple of games together the play of the O will definitely improve. I would also assume with the better O-line play the O will get better. I am also in the camp of wondering what Waldren is doing about half the time, with the play calling inside the 10 and especially inside the 5! I am sure they are working the film and trying to get Geno to read the D maybe more before the snap, and wish he would or be allowed to check out of plays, don't see allot of that happening! If it doesn't improve ,maybe Drew Lock needs to get a shot to Actually see what he's got or doesn't have-
I’m not gonna talk Geno because what is there left to say.
I am dead spot on with the last item SSJ mentioned, “why can’t the Seahawks get Walker into space?” Other teams always find a way to scheme their special players into space. Yet the Hawks just hand it to Walker behind bad blocking, requiring him to run 18 yards to gain 2.
With you on both points: I feel tired of the Geno talk myself!
With at least 6 1st round picks., next years QB class is the best in decades , I think the Hawks trade up and use Lock as a bridge and release Geno. He has been barely adequate since the 2nd half of last year. Could Lock do much worse?
Geno has what one scout describes as slow eyes. He holds the ball too long if the 1st or 2nd options are covered. In short ,Geno is a good back up, nothing more.
I think the 3rd down and red zone failures are partially due to Waldron 's predictable play calling and his bizarre personel groupings.
With better QB play and a better OC, the Hawks have the talent to be SB contenders.
The question of whether Russ made Pete look good or visa versa has been answered by the Broncos
won loss record!
We'll see what happens with the draft class, but I am getting to the point of needing a first round QB pick just for the sake of trying something dramatically different if nothing else. But also because it could be the best move.
Carrol says Geno is the best QB on the Hawks team. Geno gives them the best chance to win. When that belief changes I’m confident Carrol will make the change. In the meantime if there is a QB they like at any point in the draft next Spring I believe they will draft him and give him a shot at improving the position.
You can trash or praise almost anyone’s performance any week you want. I watched P. Mahomes miss two throws to wide open receivers in the flat, last week, as well as toss an interception all in the same game. Trash him or praise him?
Patrick Mahomes isn't have a very good season for Patrick Mahomes. It should be okay to say that, if it that is the truth.
Here’s a time when it’s okay to say that the receivers are part of the problem—the Chiefs WR must be one of the worst in the NFL.
I tried to make the same point last week. It just seems to be the world we live in. People love to tear other people down. I'm glad Pete is not that coach.
On a not entirely unrelated note, for those that haven't read Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink, you should. There's a lot that goes into making split second decisions, and there are many factors that lead to good decisions and bad decisions. Personally I think Geno is 'sped up' because his trust of the o-line isn't there. His focus, perhaps, is too much on potential danger, and not enough on what he sees in the defense. Hopefully the coaches can help him with that. Getting the o-line healthy again won't hurt.
Pitch forks are out already, my goodness. Can’t say I didn’t see it coming.
Haynes: I think it would do good to look at PFF Grades (I'm very critical of those, it's the eye test of some interns, but still an eye test and we're not looking at them in isolation) and ESPN Blocking win rates (tracking data, objective), and tape for the games he played on the right side.
If you did so, you'd see he is highly graded in both venues (again, right side, excluding the Bengals game). He's together with Landon Dickerson the only interior linemen to be top-10 in win rates both pass and run blocking.
Haynes is more than fine, he's one of the best today, with little help. He played out of position and turned out a bad game. Left and right are not interchangeable.
I'm a big fan of olive oil. I put it in everything. When in high school or so (late middle? early college?) I hurt my right hand in a way that I could still write, but could not drizzle from a oil container. It took me a few days to properly serve with my left hand, I developed ways and moves. And this is for something as trivial as pouring oil out of a can.
I've been 90% with you regarding Geno, but you've been completely unfair with Haynes. If you want to bash him, "can't remain healthy" is the most you can say.
Re PFF: “Who are you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?”
https://youtu.be/cHxGUe1cjzM?si=loYzqb5qOY7t2Epx
If left and right are not interchangeble, stop putting Jake Curhan off left tackle in obvious running situations.
If you talk to many Pro O-linemen Actually college as well) they will tell you it is the rare duck that can actually switch sides! When the guys that have actually played the game say that I tend to believe them-
Those cases are set pieces, and practiced specifically. And run blocking is much more proactive than pass protection, meaning that live reps are not as essential.
Suppose your holder is your emergency QB (quite common in old times). He will be bad at quarterbacking, but that doesn't mean you should not have trick plays when the holder stands up and throws.
Geno was a long-time back-up for a reason. He's fine, like most back-ups. To see him miss reads, miss throws, make poor calls etc shouldn't be surprising when you consider his body of work or career. Geno is playing about as well as could be expected. There are two issues from this: 1) The Wk1-5/6 stretch last year made a lot of believers he could be more. 2) A bridge/transition QB needs a plan to be replaced after one season. Pete will stick with Geno through the season in belief, that's fine, it should keep us in playoff contention. And it was smarter to wait for the 2024 QB draft than reach for someone in 2023.
My big issues continues to be Waldron. It's why i'm rolling back my "'Hawks for the 2024 superbowl" belief. The inability to scheme up any sort of worrying run threat from KW3 & Charbs, the unwillingness to use JSN like an actual receiver. A beat up OLine is not an excuse, it should be expected as I can't think of a single NFL OLine coming into week 6 that isn't banged up
We're here for this season. It'll be somewhat competitive. My fear is that Pete see this being close and doesn't understand the deeper issues. Then we'll run it back in a similar fashion and repeat, as we have done in marginally different forms since 2015/6. I hope the rest of the staff, especially John, can make him see and understand the full picture and commit to some potentially big and scare swings. [Because i keep saying it, this team isn't bad now at all, it can still get into the playoffs. But I don't want that, i'd rather swing and try to win it all. We laugh at the bad years for the 49ers and Rams, but i'd rather be a fan facing lows to enjoy the highs, than bobbing in a mask of mediocraty]
Seems I can count on one hand how many times a Pete Carroll team has "put away" a game. His guys play to keep it close, at best winning and at worst, making an exciting exit. It certainly garnered a lot of MNF invitations. ($$$)
Yeah, hate seeing people use the OL as an excuse. Every team would love to have the best OL and best OL depth in the NFL, but that's just not realistic. If it all falls apart with a few injuries (which we know is probable for most players eventually), then what's the point of anything? The only thing that mitigates those injury issues is either great QB, great coaching, or both. It would be a lot easier to try a new QB at this point...I'm not gonna go on any limbs for Drew Lock, but people should be able to at least say the first part without it meaning that it has to be Lock.
Again for me , at least, it comes down to the understanding that with out quality on the O-line the so-called skill players are just frosting. No offense can function properly without at least an adequate O-line. Look at Buffalo , there O-line is playing horribly. Josh Allen can't do everything. They did have a decent O-line and let guys go and obviously haven't replaced them! Just One example!
Tonight’s “5th Quarter” show featured K9 being the one mic’d up last Sunday! Very entertaining and great that he had such a good game.
He's the best!
Alright, one more, because I read it and it bugged so much I had to comment, but this paragraph is pretty much just nonsense:
"If they don’t, Seattle is basically reliant on the other team screwing up more times than they screw up. The Seahawks needed OT to beat the Lions despite winning the turnover battle, 3-0. The Seahawks beat the Giants 24-3 with a 3-0 turnover margin, but the game didn’t turn until Devon Witherspoon’s pick-six, otherwise the score was nearly 14-10 going into the fourth quarter against a team that was starting Bethune-Cookman backups on the offensive line."
The Lions are one of the best teams in the NFC, the Seahawks played their asses off to beat them, on the road, in a hostile environment, with backup tackles on the OL. The fact that it went to OT and the Seahawks won is great because the week leading up to this game was many Seahawks fans assuming it was a fait accompli. The same Giants team took on the Buffalo Bills on SNF, a team many predicted as Super Bowl competitors, and almost beat them. The Bills didn't own the Giants the way the Seahawks did, didn't even lead until late in the 4th quarter, otherwise they were trailing most of the game. At home. In Buffalo. I don't see how it can be bad to be beating the Giants 14-3 AND then get a pick six but somehow you've made that bad? Yes, the Giants nearly scored a TD before Witherspoon got the ball, but isn't that on the defense? Geno didn't get the TD on the previous drive but he also didn't miss a FG and turn it over to the Giants with solid field position.
The week before that, the goddamn Niners were only leading the same Giants squad by a single score, 20-12, at the END of the third quarter, at home in Santa Clara. I think we all agree the Niners are LOADED with talent, they are the consensus NFC Super Bowl team. I'm happy to read the article pointing out the Seahawks are clearly much better than the Niners and Bills based on how all three played the Giants, but that would be a dumb take so I don't know how it really matter that the Seahawks were only beating the Giants 14-3 before the Pick Six. Yeah the Giants are bad, but they're still an NFL team, Any Given Sunday, and the Seahawks still creamed them worse than literally any other team they've played this season. That entire paragraph I quoted is apples meeting oranges and realizing they're not the same variety of fruit.
I feel like the rush to condemn Geno is starting to lose some perspective, which is supremely disappointing because I'm subscribed to you for just that: perspective.
No problem! I'm thankful for your perspective.
I may have read Joe’s perspective different than you read it:
- Geno is a good QB. Is he a good enough QB? His perspective is, maybe we should start asking ourselves that question
- Seattle ranks 30th in 3rd down conversion %, a down where the QB’s (Joe’s hypothesis) increasingly are relevant. Not a great light in Geno
- Seattle is 21st in red zone conversion %, made worse by 4 trips/zero conversions vs the Bengals which cost Seattle that game, a situation where again Joe’s perspective is the QB is disproportionately important. Not a great light on Geno.
- Geno is prob good enough to get us to the playoffs, believe Joe has always said there aren’t 20 QB’s better than him. He pointed out that his rolling full season of games was north of 4000yds and a 2:1 TD to Int ratio, that’s definitely good. But can Seattle advance in the playoffs if they rank last in 3rd down conversions and last in red zone %, among playoff teams?
- As to the fantastic wins you highlight, perhaps there are other explanations than that Geno is a conference championship level QB. Seattle ranks 10th in turnover differential and that’s with one less game than most of the teams ahead of them. Seattle leads the NFL in rushing defense. Seattle ranks 4th in sacks/game and 2nd in pressure %.
Remember that Russell Wilson fella? Im 2013 he wasn’t the reason they killed Denver, was the defense, so much so that they had to pick SOMEONE from the defense for MVP (for my money KamBam). Firm believer that the reason for that passing play instead of handing off to Marshawn was “Russell MVP”-driven — cuz no question if Marshawn pounds in that TD, he’s Super Bowl MVP.
What I’m saying is (from my understanding of Joe’s perspective) is Geno is a good QB but not good enough when we hit the playoffs. And that he hasn’t been for quite a long time. And that bc of that Seattle may be wasting a Super Bowl-level offensive arsenal and the best defense it’s had in at least 6 years.
Perspective worth a subscription don’t you agree?
Joe sure doesn't seem angry with Geno the way some of the commenters come in hot against Joe. That anger strikes me as personal, and it's not what I expect here. The fun of this place is what you say...it's perspective and makes for interesting discussion and shouldn't invite arguments.
As I say, there's nothing personal about this. I would love nothing more than for Geno Smith to be a great QB. I just can't say that he is, when he isn't, just because he's Seattle's QB.
I think Morgan Freeman said something like, “Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I hate you.” SSJ welcomes comments from people who differing opinions. Some of us may just have to deal with that.
Disagreement is different than combative.
I'm just reading that paragraph as pointing out that the Hawks offense is struggling to score points, and that a couple of wins were made more likely by opportunities (or actual points) created by the defense. The Lions are pretty good. The Giants defense is pretty good. The Seahawks are not executing their offense all that well and it's showing up in the stats and on the scoreboard. It doesn't need to mean anything more than that.
Thanks, Grant. It only took Kenny about 6,000 daily newsletters before I finally found a paragraph I took offense with. The discourse this week has really worn me down and I need a break from all of it.
Haha. I appreciate it.
JT sees a lot of things but did JT have anything to say about the offensive line or the QB pressures? I didn't see his video so I can only go off what you're saying but I'd think relative to this game that at least noting the OL issues would have more merit to the outcome of the game than the formations Waldron called, which is certainly interesting but not a top takeaway I would have expected.
I point this out because while fans certainly have their opinions on Geno, I've invested my own effort into looking at a variety of commentary about this game and so far I don't find a lot of knowledgable people agreeing that Geno was so bad we should go to Defcon 2 and start Drew Lock, something I'm still not remotely enthused by no matter how many random people I see call for it.
Well, even in my summary of the video, only 1 of 4 points was about Geno Smith.
Wait. You’re objecting to Joe’s summary of the video without actually having watched the video? Seriously?
Magnum opus.
Reallly Ken, this is a fine piece of work.
Pete Carroll often refers to the 4-5 plays that you have to make (or stop) to win a game. JT does a good job of breaking down the opportunities missed that cost the Seahawks the game. The whole question of "Is Geno good enough?" now has an answer: No, he is not.
We don't know if Lock can do better, but honestly it is time to find out--now. And if not, then we know what the Seahawks must do in the 24 off season: find a QB who can take this team to the next level.
I think that ultimately the Browns game has to be the turning point: If the Browns do Browns things against the Seahawks offense, it could get very ugly. If Geno steps up, by all means, keep him out there. I have even said that I don't think Pete will make a change any time soon and probably not even this season, that's such a dramatic move for Pete Carroll to bench a QB. Did he even do that with Tarvaris Jackson? But in the offseason, I don't see the argument against going hard after an upgrade.
Unless the Seahawks somehow lose to the Cardinals...
FWIW, KJ Wright thought the play-calling was fine. We probably shouldn’t be surprised that an offense that has trouble converting third downs gets conservative on second-and-short.
I’ve been a sports fan for over sixty years. It’s my experience that when writers and fans explain offensive deficiencies as about anything but the QB (“it’s the line; it’s the play-calling; it’s DK; it’s not playing Charbonnet enough”), they are avoiding the issue. *All* of those could have been true on Sunday and the Seahawks would still have beaten Cincinnati with better QB play. On the other hand, expecting none of them to be issues strikes me as missing the point. Lines *will* struggle at times, and not every play will be the right call. That’s why good QBs are precious—they make it so that none of that makes a difference.
It's funny, Paul. Fans complained about the OL (and sometimes the WRs, and often the RBs) of the Seahawks for 10 years, but Russell Wilson was constantly good. And I don't forget that Wilson also had REALLY BAD games and REALLY BAD quarters within games. It does happen to all QBs. But what I see missing from Geno is REALLY GOOD games, especially in the last 15 or so contests. If the Seahawks don't beat one of the worst teams in the NFL in Week 1 of the 2022 season and get fans so excited about "Russ revenge" (at a time when many thought the Broncos were a good team), does Geno Smith have this much support? If you flipped last season and the Seahawks started 3-6 with their offensive output, would Pete have made a change?
Interesting to think about.
There's so much talent on this offense. I do not understand the Geno stans (am I using that word right?) online and on every podcast I listen to. They rebuke all slander towards our quarterback. Sure, the protection was terrible. And I don't think Lock could win more games. But the best version of Geno is a top 8 NFL quarterback and we haven't seen that from him in ...a year. I know play calling and protection are big factors and not every mistake was on Geno. But a lot were. I don't even have JTs premium channel but I did watch the game twice. This offense should be dynamic.
I may disagree with people that feel Geno Smith is "great" or whatever, but I never throw out the name calling and "they're not real fans" like I see from people who take offense to the accusation that Geno isn't that great. If he's what some people are comfortable with, so be it.
I hate seeing this turn into bipartisan politics (remember, 50/50 vote at field gulls if Geno should be benched now or in the near future) and this is exactly why I feared Seattle committing to a Derek Carr-level QB.
I'm thinking Geno has vision problems and is keeping it quiet, knowing it will retire him. Being Pete hired THE BEST QB coach to be had at any time, this should not be a mystery, so I'm probably wrong. But it does beg the question what this Coach has been doing. Maybe his focus is on Lock? His claim to fame is training back-ups... Furthermore, I am not a bit sorry for being hard on my expectations. After the last game last year, we were watching the Team claim "next year" is THE year. Geno said he must elevate. He hasn't done it, thus, the vision problem theory. No doubt, the stress is huge, adding to marginal issues. Maybe the Contract demands they wait until exceeding the stats is out of the question. He should have sat out the second half of the NYG game. What? He is telling Lock he's better injured than Lock will ever be. That would bother anyone.
Could be that, but I also think that Geno became too risk averse based on the fact that he was benched and never allowed to return to the starting gig until landing in an incredibly fortunate situation with Seattle many years after the Jets. He turns down throws that might be a little riskier, he throws with no anticipation, he waits too long and then takes awful sacks, and to me this all adds up to a guy who is afraid to be seen as the problem. But when you've got 3 or 4 touchdown opportunities that you miss because of being risk averse and then lose 17-13, that's a problem.
BoyHowdy. Very much agree. Well stated.
For me “the year” is 2024 bc this year’s stellar rookie class will have its sophomore leap and 2022’s class will be rounding into Pro Bowl form. Not to say Super Bowls can still be won by the Dilfers and Flaccos and Foles of the world.
For my 2 cents worth, I’ve never believed Geno was/is a long-term option. I think a QB is on the cards next draft.
And I still stand by my belief that, although he’s been ripped off a few times by not being passed to, and also being passed to while covered, DK still needs to be benched when he carries on like a pork chop. I think Bobo should be given the chance when that happens, if not more often. As I’ve said before, he hasn’t done anything wrong that I can think of, and he’s been productive - so give him more opportunity.
If you're going to bench DK, just trade him. Seems like as soon as you bench him, you create a trade block situation and lower his trade value. If I'm the coach/GM, the trade comes before the bench. DK isn't changing his stripes, he's said that very clearly.
I see where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure I agree.
If you’ve got time, I have a little story. I was once playing on a cricket team. I was the wicket keeper and considered myself ok with the bat. As the season went on, I wasn’t really concentrating on the batting and wasn’t making a lot of runs, though I still thought I was doing enough to stay middle order.
When finals came, the captain/coach put me at the bottom of the order. If you know cricket, this is usually reserved for your worst batters (usually bowlers). This made me feel surprised, embarrassed, mad and disappointed all at the same time. And I felt like I’d let the team down.
We lost that game and we’re out of contention that year. I told myself that that was never going to happen again. So the next season I worked extra hard on my batting and gradually worked my way back up the order. By the end of the year, I had made my first 100 for the club and was opening the bat in the one-day games. The following season I was second in the entire competition for batting average.
It wasn’t a benching, but it was close enough. I just think it could have the same affect on DK. If it does - look out! If it doesn’t - we’ll maybe he does need to go coz his attitude really does suck.
Wow, great review, eyes are opening. Yeah, with that many open receiver oppotunities it shows how much we've missed. It does seem like 2nd 'n 1 or 2 to go is much better than 1st 'n 10. Utilize!
The "criticisms" leveled on this Site have been well reasoned and meant to urge Geno to relax, enjoy playing and show everyone, especially himself, what he can do. The 12s have spent years watching promising talent fall into a fugue. We simply smell repeats of past results, knowing how best to deal with them from our own work challenges. I have find it best to turn and face my fears directly, realizing 90% of what we fear never materializes. Go bang out your best performances, Boyz. I can root for that. To hell with anyone causing you to compromise. Maybe this is what DK is trying to say?
Tide could be slowly turning, Charley. I'm rooting for Geno to do better because he's the QB, but think we know who he is now and that's never going to change so am worried how this offense will look against some great defenses lined up on the schedule.
I think he has more value if we know who he is (and isn't). Maybe, just maybe, we'll start running more and he can manage the game. After all, if he's a good backup level player, then shouldn't we gameplan and use him like he is a good backup player?