I love most of the offseason moves so far and think we'll be a better team for them in the long run. Trading players for picks doesn't come to fruition right away, as rookies don't often take off immediately, but in a hard cap league tough choices have to be made. I wish we could have resigned Fant for what the Bengals paid him, but I suspect he would have never taken that pay cut to stay on the same team. But we're losing bloated contracts, and that gives us a lot of flexibilty if a game changing player were to come available. This is a good core team and I love how many young players we have that should be getting more seasoned and better.
I don't disagree that Metcalf is a dynamic player, but I think there's absolutely a value you put on him and in my view, it's a LOT less than 33M per year. He was fast and drew coverage away from JSN and Lockett but he had a lot of downsides. He was poor at contested catches (even with that body!), gave up on routes, was below average creating separation, his drop rate was among the worst in the league last year, and he led all WRs with penalties, if I'm remembering SSJ's write up on him correctly. And he didn't want to be here. No hard feelings and I hope he goes on to have a nice career, but he never seemed to be able to take advantage of his physical gifts and 3rd contracts on recievers is risky. We not only didn't have to pay it, but got what looks like a good rookie player.
If Sam Darnold had a good scrimmage, that’s great. I would think it’s difficult for any quarterback to get in rhythm when you’re put in for a few players taken out and put back in take Out etc. I have a sardonic laugh when the question comes up on how Sam Donald will react to pressure. He’s been in the league long enough that evaluation. Has already already been made
The verdict is in and the answer is not good
, the feedback that I’m getting on the offensive line sounds like a hope and pray thing to
me, Add to that if you don’t think NFL teams have been looking at his NFL tape from last year’s Rams.,Lions game well good luck with that. why is so much emphasis put on the fact that we have to protect Sam Donald. The quarterback is supposed to elevate the team not the other way around.
The reality is, he’s got a slow release
does not react well to pressure and his reading is suspect . I may be dead wrong, but I do see where the analyst are coming from.. I am hoping for the best but I am expecting well. You know the rest..
Horton will be fine. Tough kid. My concern is getting our young O-Line confident that they are a force to be reckoned with. The 12s will need to be patient early on, which should be easy as K9 and Charbs will get us yardage without much help. They are used to doing it this way. I'm seeing Zabel as a farm boy familiar with getting huge creatures to do what he demands. The more trouble they give him, the more he'll get pissed: grab an ear and start steering. The guys will cowboy-up and we are off to the races. Horton will soon find himself alone downfield and Darnold will be apologizing to the Defense for scoring too fast. Easy-peasy. No matter, as our backfield D will be teaching Purdy on how to throw to his own guys and not us. Scrambling for your life will do that.
I’m a little concerned that no one has really separated themselves from the competition at Center or RG. I was hoping someone would win it by standing out ahead of the pack rather than win it because no one else could do the job. I think this Thursday we will get to see if one of them separates themselves. Fingers crossed for that to happen.
Not a huge sample size, but Olu's name keeps coming up when the other players are asked for their thoughts on the O-line. No one is ever going to be critical of their teammates in that setting, but I've heard a couple of guys (I believe both Zabel and Cross) give unsolicited praise for Olu's leadership when interviewed. That's a good quality for your starting Center, especially if commented on by those two guys.
I’m not ready to give up yet. I made comments about what I saw at the fan fest on your article before this. There was a lot of good things I saw, and in his press conference afterwards, MM said Haynes was not playing because of a strained Pec muscle. Who knows, maybe he will step up. I have no doubt Bradford would be fine in the run game, but he looked like a revolving door at times in the passing game last year and was forced to hold on too many occasions. Old looks okay, and Sundell looks fine. If I were guessing Olu is starting center and Sundell is RG. I think the reason Haynes is getting snaps at Center is to make him more valuable as a backup lineman.
Zabel made mention about "finding a way to complete your task" rather than excuse your failures for not being perfect in all the coached techniques and gimmicks. Guys get too caught up in that? He's saying your attitude is more important than anything else. You are big enough, weigh enough and are strong enough. Make it work. I'm thinking a love for brawling will go a long way. By the rules, of course.
We’re going to be fine at the tackles. I think Zabel will have growing pains as a rookie, but be better than Tomlinson. Olu should be better than last year with a little personal growth and coaching. If someone can take the RG position to a satisfactory level, we will be okay. We still have a month before opening day.
I’m so interested to see how various players do with their new teams this season. Going to have some control samples to weigh against their Seattle careers.
And also, the WR group is the same as pretty much every part of the Seahawks offense. It’s an IF statement,
- If JSN is as effective without DK
- If Kupp is healthy, if Kupp can be effective as years past
- If MVS is healthy and can catch deep passes
- If Horton comes back healthy
- If Arroyo is healthy and has an impact
The rest of the O
- If Darnold is more like 2024 (not the last two games and Jags game)
- If Ken Walker can stay healthy and gain vision
- If Kubiak is a good coordinator
- If Kubiak can help scheme the line better
- If the line is better this year than last
Those are just to name a few. And more specifically, who strikes fear into a defense? Maybe JSN? If so wouldn’t they double him or shade coverage? Wouldn’t a Defesne come in and say I’m gonna stop the run and JSN and make Arroyo Kupp abd Darnold beat me?
I don’t see a WR unless MVS or Horton hit that can stretch a defnese deep so they will likely crowd the run.
The one hope is comparing to Niners offense. I think Darnold could be a Purdy type QB. But is cross Trent Williams? Is Arroyo Kittle?
For me, my expectations are pretty low for the offense. I am fine with the DK trade but no one is going to mistake Kupp for DK.
No doubt there are many IF's. I would say though that is true for most teams. And the 'if healthy' thing applies universally, and not just to the Seahawks. I think the probabilities are that Kubiak is an upgrade from Grubb. He has the pedigree, and the NFL experience that Grubb didn't, and 90% of NFL coaches have more situational awareness than Grubb had last year......which I believe is the single biggest reason he is no longer here.
The o-line is indeed a question. Only time will answer that one, but as you hint at, Kubiak can and should help put them in better situations.
Darnold is also a question of course. Everyone talks about his last two games. I think it's the Detroit game that calls some things into question. The Rams d-line overwhelmed the Vikings o-line so quickly on most snaps, Darnold had no options. Any QB would struggle. Linemen running free before you even get to your drop is a recipe for disaster. Will he be an MVP candidate? Likely not. Will he lose games for us on his own? Dunno. We'll see. I think he'll be a net plus if he keeps his turnovers to a minimum.
How many IF's does Detroit have this year? A ton, with a coaching makeover. If you want to string 'IF healthy's' together, start with the 9'ers. Lots for both the Rams and the Cardinals.
So you're not wrong with your IF's, but context matters.
I think the biggest IF for the Seahawks is IF there young players can take the next step. Spoon, Mafe, Hall, Woolen, Bryant, Knight, JSN, Barner, Cross, Lucas, etc. Can a few of them go from good/very good to great? And if one or two of the rookies can step in right away and play well, even better.
Not as good as Minnesota’s WRs last year? This group isn’t as good as Seattle’s 2024 corps. This is the most pessimistic I’ve been about a Seahawks’ WR room. Were we in the old days of man coverage, none of these guys would command a double team.
The good news about JSN is that he’s good and presumably improving. But while he caught a lot of passes last year (9th in the league), that volume wasn’t reflected in other receiving stats (e.g., YPC, first downs, big plays, TDs). JSN has yet to show that he’s an impact player.
As for Kupp, 15M seems steep for an on-field coach whose ceiling is 70/700. For the record, the 32-year old Kupp hadn’t caught 70 passes since 2022 or played a full season since 2021. Schneider has said that the coaches will manage Kupp’s minutes so that he can play more games—which means that he’ll be on the field less each game. I’ll be happy with 60/600.
Like everyone else, I like what I’m hearing about Horton. But no matter what anyone thinks about his injury history affecting his draft position, Horton is still a Day 3 pick. I expect little out of him and hope to be pleasantly surprised.
MVS and Bobo are marginal talents who would be on the bubble of half the teams in the NFL.
Danno (I think) projects 2400 yards from the RBs. The offense will need every one of them.
Yeah, I think if K9 is able to stay mostly healthy they will get 1400+ from him. But he didn’t play yesterday at the fan fest due to his foot injury. It has to cause concern that he’s still nursing injuries and he’s had only off season time to get injured. Is Charbonnet or Martinez capable of getting real yardage if the RB1 burden falls on them?
I think Robert woods was valuable to the Texans in making the offense better without hitting 900 yards and Kupp is in a similar place. Worth $17 million? Probably not. But maybe worth more than his basic stats indicate. Plus while coaches are dedicated to teaching the young guys, having Kupp and MVS means not using up the coaches time on them so much. I could see Darnold using Kupp as a crutch early in the season.
From what I hear, read and see, MVS has already won his job as WR3/4 with the rise of Horton, I believe they will be used interchangeably and see what happens. I expect both of them to be positive contributors, but if MVS or Horton start having concentration drops the other will rise while the other drops. If that is MVS he could end up dropped off the team entirely, but he is prepaid so there's no reason to take him off the 53 unless someone actually excels in which case MVS might be released to allow room on the 53 for someone like WhiteIII.
Feels weird to say I miss you guys because there’s been a post every day but this is already the longest I’ve been away from a computer / haven’t written an article (6 days now) in over 10 years. Will be officially back Tuesday!
Rest. In peace. ; ) Then come back strong(er). It's been great as usual anyway (you could have lied to us!). Thanks for all your amazing work. Not just amazingly prolific, but so much more. You are truly appreciated for blessing all of us that love the Seahawks in an old-fashioned, pure and honest way.
Yes ! on this. Relax 'n build up your sugars (as a plant does). A long distance runner doesn't lose stamina from taking a short break. This community can coast for quite a while if necessary 'n return to peak in a short time.
Six weeks ago I toyed with the idea that Horton makes MVS less likely to make this roster. About 2 weeks ago I commented that I think MVS will not make the 53. It was a very unpopular position, but I’m tripling down on it. Horton is WR3, and will be WR2 after a season or two when Kupp retires or his roll decreases. MVS does not offer as much special teams value as WR4 which will make him far less valuable. He did not stand out at either the VMAC practice I saw or the fan fest last night. On the other hand several players who appear to be stellar special teams players did stand out. Tory Horton, who excelled at the fan fest and from what MM says, excels every day at the VMAC looked to be 1st team punt returner and 1st team kick returner at the fan fest. Bobo is a more versatile possession receiver and big contributor as a blocker and special teams. I did not see much of Ricky White or Steven Sims at the fan fest, but Dareke Young was outstanding and has always been stellar on special teams and appeared to have a big role as a kick returner in the fan fest scrimmage. Young was also reported to have a great week of padded practice at the VMAC. Tyron Brodan had an excellent day at the fan fest as did Plumlee, who had a great TD catch and was on several special teams. He has size, strength and reminds me more of Tasum Hill than anyone on the Seahawks roster.
I think the current locks at WR are JSN, Kupp, Horton, and Bobo is close to a lock as WR4. After that Dareke Young would be my WR5, but he has to keep performing in the preseason. If there is a WR6, it will be a competition between MVS, Plumlee, Broden, White and Sims.
One other take away from the fan fest, Brady Russell is the back up long snapper. He will likely play that role in the 1st preseason game against the Raiders. He’s also FB2 and a back up tight end and one of the better special teams players. I think he is close to a position on the 53.
Here are some of MVS highlights for Kubiak last season. The Seahawks save virtually no money to release him. I’m not sure why someone has to fail for Horton to be a steal.
Also a good reminder that MVS has played for Kubiak already. Not many other Seahawks can say that. JS isn't going to sign a player that Kubiak knows well and doesn't have a good opinion of.
Yes, I know. I think he also had like 17 yards per reception. I know my stance is not entirely supportable, but I also saw a Saints fan’s post showing his drops before he actually played a game for them. I know everyone drops passes occasionally. But there were a lot of them. I think you’re probably right, and I know we only save $1 million, but I just don’t think he will provide the production we will get from Horton, and his value goes down as a WR4 who can’t contribute on special teams. I know I’m most likely to be proved wrong here. But a big part of this stems from outrage over an expert’s 53 prediction that had Horton on the bubble and MVS as a lock. I’ve over-reacted, but I just feel I should stick with it, however irrational it comes across.
Yeah I agree Horton not being on the bubble. Nor do I think MVS is good. But by October this WR room might be very thin even with both of those players due to durability questions.
Whether it’s good or not in part will be how much better JSN and Barner can be. I think JSN will be better and more effective than last year and Barner could make a very big jump. He’s got great hands, he’s great with contested catches and he really wasn’t utilized much as a receiving TE last year. The other part of it will be Arroyo and Horton. As an eternal Seahawk optimist, I think they will both surprise. Now I know Arroyo and Barner are not WRs. But I expect targets to TEs to increase in Kubiak’s system, and overall passing to decrease vs run plays. So overall targets to WRs may go down, but perhaps success rate goes up. I will admit, seeing Horton as the primary punt returner and Kick off returner does make me worry about durability more than him being WR3.
I clicked 5 of 5 but I'm not sure I really feel that way. Cupp staying healthy is a big gamble after we shipped off our #2 and #3 WRs from last year -but if he can we're going to be alright. I'm trying to stay objective on Tory Horton because I've fallen for Tanner McEvoy, Kasen Williams, Easop Winston, John Ursua, and probably a few others I've forgotten. WR seems to be the biggest postion where players shine in camp and preseason and then never make much impact in games -at least for Seahawks players. I don't follow other team's training camp hype. But if Horton starts burning DBs in preseason games, I'm probably going to fall for it again. Hopefully this time a Seahawk joins that list you posted.
I put a lot more emphasis on what a player did in the NFL last season than what he does in preseason or training camp. Including rookies who were not in the NFL last season. If every training camp stand out became a good NFL player, the league would be so talented that even the UFL could field an NFL quality team from the leftovers. Horton could be anything but if we are only going off of 2 weeks of practice, we’ve seen this story play out the same for dozens of other receivers who did not become NFL starters or sometimes even make the league. That being said, I’m all for Tory Horton, but my expectations have only changed by a tiny amount.
I just wish for a threat at “X”, someone who makes the safety cheat over. If DK had any value it was that — had to keep an eye on him always. Sure hope that’s Horton — if it is, we are SET
Horton runs in the 4.3s as did DK, has much better hands and high points better than DK. I watched him move yesterday and he also is very fluid and deceptive in his routes. That’s what makes him so dangerous as a punt returner. I think Horton will leave us saying “DK who” after next season.
Carroll spoiled both DK and Wilson with his coaching. Both see themselves doing better away from Pete, playing the Blame Game on coaching. DK will find out what Wilson now knows.
Yeah, there was a good reason not to let Russ cook. Russ thought he could be a pocket passer like Brady. Sit there, find the open receiver and pick you apart with crisp short and intermediate passes. Russ needed a running game to open up his scrambles and give time for deep passes.
MVS has made a career out of dropping balls... 10% drop rate for his career. DK was at 8.3% last year (3rd worst among the Top 30 WRs). Funny enough, Puka and Tyreek Hill were the only 2 higher than DK and they were mentioned in this article as late round successes. I agree, the door is wide open for Horton, who would have been a 2nd-3rd rd pick if everyone knew he was healthy. I think we may have ourselves a steal. I can picture him as JSN's Daryl Turner.
MVS is going to have a hard time making this roster. From what I saw at the fan fest yesterday, he’s already playing with the 1st team over MVS. Horton’s catch radius and hands are ridiculous.
There are lots of objective reasons to indicate that Tory Horton COULD be a highly productive WR in the NFL. Ran a 4.4 40 on a bad knee (reports indicate he's run a 4.3 previously, which I find believable), the offence in college ran through him, does not look at all lost in his first NFL training camp, and has impressed his coaches, QB, and fellow WR's in camp so far. Now, none of this means he will make a significant impact this year, but compare him to other late round WR's who've been invisible in their first camps, he's put himself in a much better position.
I think he's actually critical to the WR room, and I think that's why Kubiak is investing so much in him. He knows if Kupp or JSN get injured, they are going to need somebody for a few games to step up. MVS can take some of the load, as could Bobo in the WR room, and I'm hoping the TE group gets WAY more touches this year, but Horton is that guy who can run every route, and can take the top off the defence when needed. He'd be a very useful piece if he can continue to develop.
I've been wrong many times, but I think Horton's going to add value in year 1. I don't know whether that'll be 300 yards or 600 yards, but I think he'll contribute. And, he has Cooper Kupp in his ear every day, so what more can you ask for.
I see Horton as the MVS deep ball guy that is critical to this offense (keep FS honest, and deeper). But MVS is limited. Better blocker than Horton. But agree with you. While Bobo great hands and a good blocker, Horton can run the routes, not just deep speedster. Bobo can replace some short/intermediate but not YAC. On one post I said Horton/Bobo are the WR4 A/B. Thus far in camp Horton showing out. But come season doubt we see big stats. But future may be bright.
And the reason Kubiak knows this is because it happened to him last year. Olave led all Saints WRs with 400 yds receiving (you read that right - 400 yds) and played 8 games.
I've heard Arroyo mentioned as a possible "X" receiver more than a couple times. That would fit with Kubiak fielding Big Bruisers as much as he can. Kupp is saying how much he would love blocking more.
If Horton was not injured last year, he would have had his 3rd consecutive 1000+ yard season, and maybe his best season as a college player. He would have been a 2nd round pick and expected to be a big contributor. It looks as if he’s almost fully recovered from that injury. I think we have to stop looking at him as a 5th round pick and embrace bigger expectations from him this year.
It sounds like Horton is absolutely tearing it up lately in training camp. McDonald mentioned (in an article at Seattle Sports) that he’s making multiple stand-out plays each day.
I love most of the offseason moves so far and think we'll be a better team for them in the long run. Trading players for picks doesn't come to fruition right away, as rookies don't often take off immediately, but in a hard cap league tough choices have to be made. I wish we could have resigned Fant for what the Bengals paid him, but I suspect he would have never taken that pay cut to stay on the same team. But we're losing bloated contracts, and that gives us a lot of flexibilty if a game changing player were to come available. This is a good core team and I love how many young players we have that should be getting more seasoned and better.
I don't disagree that Metcalf is a dynamic player, but I think there's absolutely a value you put on him and in my view, it's a LOT less than 33M per year. He was fast and drew coverage away from JSN and Lockett but he had a lot of downsides. He was poor at contested catches (even with that body!), gave up on routes, was below average creating separation, his drop rate was among the worst in the league last year, and he led all WRs with penalties, if I'm remembering SSJ's write up on him correctly. And he didn't want to be here. No hard feelings and I hope he goes on to have a nice career, but he never seemed to be able to take advantage of his physical gifts and 3rd contracts on recievers is risky. We not only didn't have to pay it, but got what looks like a good rookie player.
Undrafted guys don't get any love on that list?
If Sam Darnold had a good scrimmage, that’s great. I would think it’s difficult for any quarterback to get in rhythm when you’re put in for a few players taken out and put back in take Out etc. I have a sardonic laugh when the question comes up on how Sam Donald will react to pressure. He’s been in the league long enough that evaluation. Has already already been made
The verdict is in and the answer is not good
, the feedback that I’m getting on the offensive line sounds like a hope and pray thing to
me, Add to that if you don’t think NFL teams have been looking at his NFL tape from last year’s Rams.,Lions game well good luck with that. why is so much emphasis put on the fact that we have to protect Sam Donald. The quarterback is supposed to elevate the team not the other way around.
The reality is, he’s got a slow release
does not react well to pressure and his reading is suspect . I may be dead wrong, but I do see where the analyst are coming from.. I am hoping for the best but I am expecting well. You know the rest..
.
,
Horton will be fine. Tough kid. My concern is getting our young O-Line confident that they are a force to be reckoned with. The 12s will need to be patient early on, which should be easy as K9 and Charbs will get us yardage without much help. They are used to doing it this way. I'm seeing Zabel as a farm boy familiar with getting huge creatures to do what he demands. The more trouble they give him, the more he'll get pissed: grab an ear and start steering. The guys will cowboy-up and we are off to the races. Horton will soon find himself alone downfield and Darnold will be apologizing to the Defense for scoring too fast. Easy-peasy. No matter, as our backfield D will be teaching Purdy on how to throw to his own guys and not us. Scrambling for your life will do that.
I’m a little concerned that no one has really separated themselves from the competition at Center or RG. I was hoping someone would win it by standing out ahead of the pack rather than win it because no one else could do the job. I think this Thursday we will get to see if one of them separates themselves. Fingers crossed for that to happen.
Yeah. Afraid I have a big swing and miss on my Christian Haynes prediction.
Not a huge sample size, but Olu's name keeps coming up when the other players are asked for their thoughts on the O-line. No one is ever going to be critical of their teammates in that setting, but I've heard a couple of guys (I believe both Zabel and Cross) give unsolicited praise for Olu's leadership when interviewed. That's a good quality for your starting Center, especially if commented on by those two guys.
I’m not ready to give up yet. I made comments about what I saw at the fan fest on your article before this. There was a lot of good things I saw, and in his press conference afterwards, MM said Haynes was not playing because of a strained Pec muscle. Who knows, maybe he will step up. I have no doubt Bradford would be fine in the run game, but he looked like a revolving door at times in the passing game last year and was forced to hold on too many occasions. Old looks okay, and Sundell looks fine. If I were guessing Olu is starting center and Sundell is RG. I think the reason Haynes is getting snaps at Center is to make him more valuable as a backup lineman.
Zabel made mention about "finding a way to complete your task" rather than excuse your failures for not being perfect in all the coached techniques and gimmicks. Guys get too caught up in that? He's saying your attitude is more important than anything else. You are big enough, weigh enough and are strong enough. Make it work. I'm thinking a love for brawling will go a long way. By the rules, of course.
We’re going to be fine at the tackles. I think Zabel will have growing pains as a rookie, but be better than Tomlinson. Olu should be better than last year with a little personal growth and coaching. If someone can take the RG position to a satisfactory level, we will be okay. We still have a month before opening day.
"Kupp is going to be a lot better at avoiding “negative plays” than Metcalf" X 'nth*
I’m so interested to see how various players do with their new teams this season. Going to have some control samples to weigh against their Seattle careers.
I would agree with Paul Gs comment.
And also, the WR group is the same as pretty much every part of the Seahawks offense. It’s an IF statement,
- If JSN is as effective without DK
- If Kupp is healthy, if Kupp can be effective as years past
- If MVS is healthy and can catch deep passes
- If Horton comes back healthy
- If Arroyo is healthy and has an impact
The rest of the O
- If Darnold is more like 2024 (not the last two games and Jags game)
- If Ken Walker can stay healthy and gain vision
- If Kubiak is a good coordinator
- If Kubiak can help scheme the line better
- If the line is better this year than last
Those are just to name a few. And more specifically, who strikes fear into a defense? Maybe JSN? If so wouldn’t they double him or shade coverage? Wouldn’t a Defesne come in and say I’m gonna stop the run and JSN and make Arroyo Kupp abd Darnold beat me?
I don’t see a WR unless MVS or Horton hit that can stretch a defnese deep so they will likely crowd the run.
The one hope is comparing to Niners offense. I think Darnold could be a Purdy type QB. But is cross Trent Williams? Is Arroyo Kittle?
For me, my expectations are pretty low for the offense. I am fine with the DK trade but no one is going to mistake Kupp for DK.
No doubt there are many IF's. I would say though that is true for most teams. And the 'if healthy' thing applies universally, and not just to the Seahawks. I think the probabilities are that Kubiak is an upgrade from Grubb. He has the pedigree, and the NFL experience that Grubb didn't, and 90% of NFL coaches have more situational awareness than Grubb had last year......which I believe is the single biggest reason he is no longer here.
The o-line is indeed a question. Only time will answer that one, but as you hint at, Kubiak can and should help put them in better situations.
Darnold is also a question of course. Everyone talks about his last two games. I think it's the Detroit game that calls some things into question. The Rams d-line overwhelmed the Vikings o-line so quickly on most snaps, Darnold had no options. Any QB would struggle. Linemen running free before you even get to your drop is a recipe for disaster. Will he be an MVP candidate? Likely not. Will he lose games for us on his own? Dunno. We'll see. I think he'll be a net plus if he keeps his turnovers to a minimum.
How many IF's does Detroit have this year? A ton, with a coaching makeover. If you want to string 'IF healthy's' together, start with the 9'ers. Lots for both the Rams and the Cardinals.
So you're not wrong with your IF's, but context matters.
I think the biggest IF for the Seahawks is IF there young players can take the next step. Spoon, Mafe, Hall, Woolen, Bryant, Knight, JSN, Barner, Cross, Lucas, etc. Can a few of them go from good/very good to great? And if one or two of the rookies can step in right away and play well, even better.
My experience is that mounting ifs rarely signify anything good.
In 2025, they are going to miss DK. Without him, Walker is the only game-changing player on the offense.
To a point, I get the value stuff. It’s just that I don’t think you can put a value on a game changer, and those are the players who win you SBs.
I completely agree with this comment.
I am also concerned (not overly concerned more interested) to see what JSN can do when he is clearly the number 1 threat.
>>- If Kubiak is a good coordinator
>>- If Kubiak can help scheme the line better
Last year, Benton and Kubiak had the Saints scoring 80+ points in their first 2 outings.
Yes … for two games.
An average passing offense and an above average rushing offense would be pretty awesome.
Yes … I would be thrilled with that result. Especially if the season goes similar to last season on D where it gels and finishes strong
Offensive line is probably the biggest If of all.
The most important stat this season with be Ken Walker games started 17. If we see that stat after 18 weeks, buy some champagne.
Glass half empty?
I just think that is too many IF statements. Hard to have them all or a majority break your way.
I think about that in comparison to the defense where I see some questions but not many
Yeah. I’ve been a sports fan too long to not be a skeptic.
Not as good as Minnesota’s WRs last year? This group isn’t as good as Seattle’s 2024 corps. This is the most pessimistic I’ve been about a Seahawks’ WR room. Were we in the old days of man coverage, none of these guys would command a double team.
The good news about JSN is that he’s good and presumably improving. But while he caught a lot of passes last year (9th in the league), that volume wasn’t reflected in other receiving stats (e.g., YPC, first downs, big plays, TDs). JSN has yet to show that he’s an impact player.
As for Kupp, 15M seems steep for an on-field coach whose ceiling is 70/700. For the record, the 32-year old Kupp hadn’t caught 70 passes since 2022 or played a full season since 2021. Schneider has said that the coaches will manage Kupp’s minutes so that he can play more games—which means that he’ll be on the field less each game. I’ll be happy with 60/600.
Like everyone else, I like what I’m hearing about Horton. But no matter what anyone thinks about his injury history affecting his draft position, Horton is still a Day 3 pick. I expect little out of him and hope to be pleasantly surprised.
MVS and Bobo are marginal talents who would be on the bubble of half the teams in the NFL.
Danno (I think) projects 2400 yards from the RBs. The offense will need every one of them.
Yeah, I think if K9 is able to stay mostly healthy they will get 1400+ from him. But he didn’t play yesterday at the fan fest due to his foot injury. It has to cause concern that he’s still nursing injuries and he’s had only off season time to get injured. Is Charbonnet or Martinez capable of getting real yardage if the RB1 burden falls on them?
I think Robert woods was valuable to the Texans in making the offense better without hitting 900 yards and Kupp is in a similar place. Worth $17 million? Probably not. But maybe worth more than his basic stats indicate. Plus while coaches are dedicated to teaching the young guys, having Kupp and MVS means not using up the coaches time on them so much. I could see Darnold using Kupp as a crutch early in the season.
From what I hear, read and see, MVS has already won his job as WR3/4 with the rise of Horton, I believe they will be used interchangeably and see what happens. I expect both of them to be positive contributors, but if MVS or Horton start having concentration drops the other will rise while the other drops. If that is MVS he could end up dropped off the team entirely, but he is prepaid so there's no reason to take him off the 53 unless someone actually excels in which case MVS might be released to allow room on the 53 for someone like WhiteIII.
Feels weird to say I miss you guys because there’s been a post every day but this is already the longest I’ve been away from a computer / haven’t written an article (6 days now) in over 10 years. Will be officially back Tuesday!
Rest. In peace. ; ) Then come back strong(er). It's been great as usual anyway (you could have lied to us!). Thanks for all your amazing work. Not just amazingly prolific, but so much more. You are truly appreciated for blessing all of us that love the Seahawks in an old-fashioned, pure and honest way.
The main things are to have a great vacation and to treasure your time with SSJay.
I hope you don’t rerun out of pre-written articles before Tuesday!
Yes ! on this. Relax 'n build up your sugars (as a plant does). A long distance runner doesn't lose stamina from taking a short break. This community can coast for quite a while if necessary 'n return to peak in a short time.
You've done well, KenJoe & Seaside Jay, enjoy Y'all's time off.
No worries there haha
Six weeks ago I toyed with the idea that Horton makes MVS less likely to make this roster. About 2 weeks ago I commented that I think MVS will not make the 53. It was a very unpopular position, but I’m tripling down on it. Horton is WR3, and will be WR2 after a season or two when Kupp retires or his roll decreases. MVS does not offer as much special teams value as WR4 which will make him far less valuable. He did not stand out at either the VMAC practice I saw or the fan fest last night. On the other hand several players who appear to be stellar special teams players did stand out. Tory Horton, who excelled at the fan fest and from what MM says, excels every day at the VMAC looked to be 1st team punt returner and 1st team kick returner at the fan fest. Bobo is a more versatile possession receiver and big contributor as a blocker and special teams. I did not see much of Ricky White or Steven Sims at the fan fest, but Dareke Young was outstanding and has always been stellar on special teams and appeared to have a big role as a kick returner in the fan fest scrimmage. Young was also reported to have a great week of padded practice at the VMAC. Tyron Brodan had an excellent day at the fan fest as did Plumlee, who had a great TD catch and was on several special teams. He has size, strength and reminds me more of Tasum Hill than anyone on the Seahawks roster.
I think the current locks at WR are JSN, Kupp, Horton, and Bobo is close to a lock as WR4. After that Dareke Young would be my WR5, but he has to keep performing in the preseason. If there is a WR6, it will be a competition between MVS, Plumlee, Broden, White and Sims.
One other take away from the fan fest, Brady Russell is the back up long snapper. He will likely play that role in the 1st preseason game against the Raiders. He’s also FB2 and a back up tight end and one of the better special teams players. I think he is close to a position on the 53.
Here are some of MVS highlights for Kubiak last season. The Seahawks save virtually no money to release him. I’m not sure why someone has to fail for Horton to be a steal.
https://x.com/ihartitz/status/1935854726459146533?s=46
Also a good reminder that MVS has played for Kubiak already. Not many other Seahawks can say that. JS isn't going to sign a player that Kubiak knows well and doesn't have a good opinion of.
Dang! Lean, fast, race-Dawg, knows how to take a hit without being crunched.
Some of the cornerbacks end up taking more of the hit than him.
Yes, I know. I think he also had like 17 yards per reception. I know my stance is not entirely supportable, but I also saw a Saints fan’s post showing his drops before he actually played a game for them. I know everyone drops passes occasionally. But there were a lot of them. I think you’re probably right, and I know we only save $1 million, but I just don’t think he will provide the production we will get from Horton, and his value goes down as a WR4 who can’t contribute on special teams. I know I’m most likely to be proved wrong here. But a big part of this stems from outrage over an expert’s 53 prediction that had Horton on the bubble and MVS as a lock. I’ve over-reacted, but I just feel I should stick with it, however irrational it comes across.
Yeah I agree Horton not being on the bubble. Nor do I think MVS is good. But by October this WR room might be very thin even with both of those players due to durability questions.
Whether it’s good or not in part will be how much better JSN and Barner can be. I think JSN will be better and more effective than last year and Barner could make a very big jump. He’s got great hands, he’s great with contested catches and he really wasn’t utilized much as a receiving TE last year. The other part of it will be Arroyo and Horton. As an eternal Seahawk optimist, I think they will both surprise. Now I know Arroyo and Barner are not WRs. But I expect targets to TEs to increase in Kubiak’s system, and overall passing to decrease vs run plays. So overall targets to WRs may go down, but perhaps success rate goes up. I will admit, seeing Horton as the primary punt returner and Kick off returner does make me worry about durability more than him being WR3.
I clicked 5 of 5 but I'm not sure I really feel that way. Cupp staying healthy is a big gamble after we shipped off our #2 and #3 WRs from last year -but if he can we're going to be alright. I'm trying to stay objective on Tory Horton because I've fallen for Tanner McEvoy, Kasen Williams, Easop Winston, John Ursua, and probably a few others I've forgotten. WR seems to be the biggest postion where players shine in camp and preseason and then never make much impact in games -at least for Seahawks players. I don't follow other team's training camp hype. But if Horton starts burning DBs in preseason games, I'm probably going to fall for it again. Hopefully this time a Seahawk joins that list you posted.
I expect to see Horton burning DBs in preseason, as he's primarily up against rookies and bench players. "Doing okay" sends up flares for me.
I put a lot more emphasis on what a player did in the NFL last season than what he does in preseason or training camp. Including rookies who were not in the NFL last season. If every training camp stand out became a good NFL player, the league would be so talented that even the UFL could field an NFL quality team from the leftovers. Horton could be anything but if we are only going off of 2 weeks of practice, we’ve seen this story play out the same for dozens of other receivers who did not become NFL starters or sometimes even make the league. That being said, I’m all for Tory Horton, but my expectations have only changed by a tiny amount.
I just wish for a threat at “X”, someone who makes the safety cheat over. If DK had any value it was that — had to keep an eye on him always. Sure hope that’s Horton — if it is, we are SET
Horton runs in the 4.3s as did DK, has much better hands and high points better than DK. I watched him move yesterday and he also is very fluid and deceptive in his routes. That’s what makes him so dangerous as a punt returner. I think Horton will leave us saying “DK who” after next season.
Carroll spoiled both DK and Wilson with his coaching. Both see themselves doing better away from Pete, playing the Blame Game on coaching. DK will find out what Wilson now knows.
Yeah, there was a good reason not to let Russ cook. Russ thought he could be a pocket passer like Brady. Sit there, find the open receiver and pick you apart with crisp short and intermediate passes. Russ needed a running game to open up his scrambles and give time for deep passes.
Horton hears a "who"
MVS has the speed to be that, but every breakdown on him I've seen showed him dropping an unacceptable number of catchable passes.
MVS has made a career out of dropping balls... 10% drop rate for his career. DK was at 8.3% last year (3rd worst among the Top 30 WRs). Funny enough, Puka and Tyreek Hill were the only 2 higher than DK and they were mentioned in this article as late round successes. I agree, the door is wide open for Horton, who would have been a 2nd-3rd rd pick if everyone knew he was healthy. I think we may have ourselves a steal. I can picture him as JSN's Daryl Turner.
I feel the same way. I think he will settle in as a fine WR2 when Kupp steps down.
MVS is going to have a hard time making this roster. From what I saw at the fan fest yesterday, he’s already playing with the 1st team over MVS. Horton’s catch radius and hands are ridiculous.
There are lots of objective reasons to indicate that Tory Horton COULD be a highly productive WR in the NFL. Ran a 4.4 40 on a bad knee (reports indicate he's run a 4.3 previously, which I find believable), the offence in college ran through him, does not look at all lost in his first NFL training camp, and has impressed his coaches, QB, and fellow WR's in camp so far. Now, none of this means he will make a significant impact this year, but compare him to other late round WR's who've been invisible in their first camps, he's put himself in a much better position.
I think he's actually critical to the WR room, and I think that's why Kubiak is investing so much in him. He knows if Kupp or JSN get injured, they are going to need somebody for a few games to step up. MVS can take some of the load, as could Bobo in the WR room, and I'm hoping the TE group gets WAY more touches this year, but Horton is that guy who can run every route, and can take the top off the defence when needed. He'd be a very useful piece if he can continue to develop.
I've been wrong many times, but I think Horton's going to add value in year 1. I don't know whether that'll be 300 yards or 600 yards, but I think he'll contribute. And, he has Cooper Kupp in his ear every day, so what more can you ask for.
I see Horton as the MVS deep ball guy that is critical to this offense (keep FS honest, and deeper). But MVS is limited. Better blocker than Horton. But agree with you. While Bobo great hands and a good blocker, Horton can run the routes, not just deep speedster. Bobo can replace some short/intermediate but not YAC. On one post I said Horton/Bobo are the WR4 A/B. Thus far in camp Horton showing out. But come season doubt we see big stats. But future may be bright.
And the reason Kubiak knows this is because it happened to him last year. Olave led all Saints WRs with 400 yds receiving (you read that right - 400 yds) and played 8 games.
I've heard Arroyo mentioned as a possible "X" receiver more than a couple times. That would fit with Kubiak fielding Big Bruisers as much as he can. Kupp is saying how much he would love blocking more.
If Horton was not injured last year, he would have had his 3rd consecutive 1000+ yard season, and maybe his best season as a college player. He would have been a 2nd round pick and expected to be a big contributor. It looks as if he’s almost fully recovered from that injury. I think we have to stop looking at him as a 5th round pick and embrace bigger expectations from him this year.
Absolutely!!!
It sounds like Horton is absolutely tearing it up lately in training camp. McDonald mentioned (in an article at Seattle Sports) that he’s making multiple stand-out plays each day.
That would make this WR room pretty damn good.
Looking forward to seeing how targets shake out in the regular season. If he has a rookie season like Khalil Shakir, that alone would be phenomenal.