Totally get what you're flagging here, but I dunno. Draft picks who end up underperforming their draft slots come in all shapes and sizes, as do draft picks who overperform their draft slots. Lots of failures regardless of whether they are 'multiple' or not. Simmons is an interesting use case, but n=1 and all that, so it's hard to project that result onto another player.
Caution? Sure, but I'd approach him no differently than any other player. Does he love football? Do his medicals check out? What is our plan for him? What's his football IQ? What does his tape say? What do his prior coaches say?
That's all you can do. If the dude is a flat out baller and game wrecker, and thinks the game at a high level, take a shot at whatever spot in the draft you have him rated at. I don't worry about positionless, I worry about a lack of plan and/or conviction to a plan.
I was watching a Seattle Sports video on youtube yesterday, and the mere thought of taking a DB in the first round sent Mike Salk off a cliff. I think there would be a similar reaction from many other fans. But, if John really sticks to BPA, and DeJean is the highest rated player when they pick, positional need be damned he makes the pick. That's what he did last year, and that seems to have worked out ok.
You draft DeJean because he's an excellent DB, and you play him because he's an excellent DB. Roll back 6 months and his stock really was Top10, and it's since he went down injured the analysists just seemed to forget all this and start dropping him in their minds.
Key Positives: Athletic, quick, smart, great character, elite ball skills, consistent cbf production in bulk, fluid in motion
Key Negatives: Umm.. maybe he's too strong and as a result looks less quick than he actually is.
That's not me exagerating, that's the reality. At CB he's been excellent for Iowa, and because it's Iowa you know he's been coached properly. You pick him and put him in at CB first of all. If MM then sees him transitioning cool, but honestly I fully believe he'd just work out as a CB to make a strong pairing with Devon. It's one that can be overhthought in the pre-draft process, but i'll trust in the tape and feel more than confident DeJean would be a success. The potential versitility is a bonus
Those predicting only usability at Safety i think spend too much time placing and evaluating players based on physical traits and what they "hear" rather than see. Trying to almost force him as a Safety, and just ignoring how good he has been as a Corner. The dudes an elite Corner, draft him as a Corner and reap the rewards, with a Bonus you may also be able to use him as a Safety if you need.
The greatest risk in the draft is visualization of what a player could be instead of evaluating what they are. It is why there are so many busts at QB. Most QBs don’t play in the system they will have to play in the pros so one is projecting how they will play rather than just evaluating how they are playing.
The same is true when envisioning position players at other positions. Drafting a player based on what you think they will do rather than what they are doing is a risk. That was one of the basic premises of “Money Ball.” The safe choice is draft a high performing player who will be asked to do the same things in the pros that they did in college against better competition. But safe doesn’t get you a game changer at 16.
Four years ago the best defensive football player in the draft was Micah Parsons. In college Parsons was primarily a weak side linebacker. a position that didn’t warrant a high pick. He was an incredible athlete that had flashed the coverage skills required of a pro linebacker but was primarily known for his production in stopping the run. He also had shown some ability to rush the qb but really had not done it very often. The argument’s Kenneth’s making concerning DeJean could and were made about Parsons. Kenneth if you were the Cowboys would you have tried to trade down because the corners you desperately needed were gone. After all he didn’t play a premium position and the team had drafted linebackers in two of the past three years in the first round. Sounds like a no brainer. The smart book choice is to either take who ever is left at a premium position or trade down.
The Seahawks should draft DeJean not because they think they can make him the next Hamilton. They should only draft if they believe he is great football player who they can get the most out of wherever they play him.
The greatest risk in the draft is visualization of what a player could be instead of evaluating what they are. It is why there are so many busts at QB. Most QBs don’t play in the system they will have to play in the pros so one is projecting how they will play rather than just evaluating how they are playing.
The same is true when envisioning position players at other positions. Drafting a player based on what you think they will do rather than what they are doing is a risk. That was one of the basic premises of “Money Ball.” The safe choice is draft a high performing player who will be asked to do the same things in the pros that they did in college against better competition. But safe doesn’t get you a game changer at 16.
Four years ago the best defensive football player in the draft was Micah Parsons. In college Parsons was primarily a weak side linebacker. a position that didn’t warrant a high pick. He was an incredible athlete that had flashed the coverage skills required of a pro linebacker but was primarily known for his production in stopping the run. He also had shown some ability to rush the qb but really had not done it very often. The argument’s Kenneth’s making concerning DeJean could and were made about Parsons. Kenneth if you were the Cowboys would you have tried to trade down because the corners you desperately needed were gone. After all he didn’t play a premium position and the team had drafted linebackers in two of the past three years in the first round. Sounds like a no brainer. The smart book choice is to either take who ever is left at a premium position or trade down.
The Seahawks should draft DeJean not because they think they can make him the next Hamilton. They should only draft if they believe he is great football player who they can get the most out of wherever they play him.
DeJean could be a great player, I loved the ball skills he showed on the interception directly over his head. But I really think the Hawks need a pass rushing DT who can stuff the run.
Kenneth, your dedicated and disciplined analysis is always appreciated. I struggled with this one because I believe DeJean is a true dawg--a football player. I'm not sold on him in round one, but I'd take him in round two, and see him as a steal in three. He's got a nose for the ball and seems to have a natural sense of where all other 21 players are on the field. I wouldn't reach for him, but I'd love it if he were part of a move to trade down to late in the 2nd round
Put like that, I just lost my interest in DeJean. And those are wise words, as a rule, regarding positionless players. They have to start with elite status at one position before they can be called versatile, in my opinion. Sherman had limited success trying to move out of his normal position and following a player to the other side. They only tried it twice, I think, and then abandoned it all together.
Anyways, keep narrowing down the list. I;m inclined towards one of the elite DT's. Unless they go for broke with Penix.
Great article. Why do teams think they can project players into roles that they haven't played much on their college teams? Michael Boulware was a star linebacker in college and the Hawks made him a strong safety because he was undersized. I loved the guy, he made some timely interceptions that made me think he was going to be great for a while. IMHO he couldn't shake his linebacker instincts, constantly biting on play-action while other teams took advantage for deep TD's.
My memory of Simmons is that he was a classic tweener: A traits guy whose floor was as low as his ceiling was high, and that the higher he was drafted, the greater the risk. Dejean, whom no one talks about as a top ten pick, seems like a completely different kettle of fish. Plus, by all accounts he has ball skills, which is just about impossible to overvalue in a DB.
FWIW, I’d be thrilled if Witherspoon were moved to the outside. Like it or not, he’s on the small side and in the slot will take as much of a beating as he dishes out. He’ll never play a complete season in the slot, and playing there could shorten a potentially brilliant career. Move him to LCB, please.
We need a stud LB , Nose Tackle and a stud interior lineman much more than another DB. I feel more secure about our DBs than the other positions. This will be a very interesting season.
"It’s not that Isaiah Simmons was doomed to fail because he was “positionless”, as great players will always find a way..."
I wish I know how to put in bold font part of a quote I respond to because I would with this quote starting at the word "as". Please pretend I did.
See, this is where I fall. Cooper DeJean is a great player, and wherever he ends up, I suspect he will find a way. If I want a corner, would I prefer him to Quinyon Mitchell in this draft? Hell no! Is he someone I'd want to line up at outside corner vs Ja'Marr Chase? Yeah, not so much, but as a guy for the role we hoped Jamal Adams would work out in? To my limited knowledge, heck yeah! I've been watching Iowa games (okay only 4 all the way through, but lots of condensed stuff) and good Lord that young man is a human highlight. Part of what gets me is when he gets an INT or returns or otherwise gets the ball in his hands how instinctual he is in traffic, making the only cut that will make him more yardage. Obviously highlights are a bad way to evaluate, but if you want to see him do this 3 times per play, just google "Cooper DeJean highlights" and it's like he had 5 minutes to study how the other personnel was breaking down before he decided the direction to run.
Not to get poiliticky/race/religion but I feel like his skin color plays a factor in how his athleticism is viewed. It's been a while but pretty sure Florio and a lot of other big brains said that Christian Mccaffrey was a Swiss Army Knife and not an every down back. His measurements were all on point, like Cooper's. If Mike Mac wants a guy like him or doesn't for his scheme seems the biggest deciding factor in whether or not he's worth that kind of draft capital.
I have no doubt Spoon will spoof the offenses, as we saw him do with blitzing QBs successfully last year, making him Mack's obvious target for "positionless" player. He was a natural at it with a Rottweiler's sense of attack when turned loose. When asked if he could play Slot, he said sure and went out and showed us his versatility, using no more than instinct and tenacity. Mack's challenge will be convincing all the Secondary to contribute more than their Box demands. "Fool-me-once" doesn't play well over a 17 game season, so we'll need a whole bag of tricks from all the guys. My bet is Pete gave him a Team eager to show they are so much more than their individual parts. JS will be looking to find the guys who show promise in developing into this attitude. There are no ready-made rookies for this. Spoon surprised us all, himself included.
From the tape I have seen, DeJean looks more like a slot corner/safety guy and the player he would be most like on the current Seahawks roster is Coby Bryant. If the Seahawks drafted DeJean it would be to replace Bryant, I think, and he may be a better player. Because he *can* play either position it creates doubt about how he will be used on any given offensive snap, much like Love, and Witherspoon. From a MM point of view do you want that or need it? Can you get that from Coby without spending a 1.16 on a player like DeJean?
So, chess: yes all pieces are moveable but some are more moveable than others! Queens just stand around menacingly most of the time. Rooks are like running backs/linebackers, Bishops like receivers/safeties, but Knights?!! Those guys are the jokers you never know what they are going to do next. A board full of Knights would be a real menace to behold.
And machete or knife? Naw... all you need is your right thumb!
We had our own Simmons that was a massive bust and don’t need another. A generational athlete that could not miss; Anthony Simmons
I get some moves , OT to G or C they are similar enough. But after so many of these great athletes that can’t play I am a bit done. I believe we ruin more players that way. I see use doing it with Colby Bryant that latest player I fear is getting jacked around. CB, sot CB and now safety. A Swiss Army knife approach vs mastering one position.
The latest rumors are Adams back as a LB ? Hmm… no thanks.
Who can forget after sweezy an avarage guard the next two cable experiments Drew Nowak and Kristjan Sokol?
Just draft a solid player. Coach them up to master the position that they have probably played since HS.
Totally get what you're flagging here, but I dunno. Draft picks who end up underperforming their draft slots come in all shapes and sizes, as do draft picks who overperform their draft slots. Lots of failures regardless of whether they are 'multiple' or not. Simmons is an interesting use case, but n=1 and all that, so it's hard to project that result onto another player.
Caution? Sure, but I'd approach him no differently than any other player. Does he love football? Do his medicals check out? What is our plan for him? What's his football IQ? What does his tape say? What do his prior coaches say?
That's all you can do. If the dude is a flat out baller and game wrecker, and thinks the game at a high level, take a shot at whatever spot in the draft you have him rated at. I don't worry about positionless, I worry about a lack of plan and/or conviction to a plan.
I was watching a Seattle Sports video on youtube yesterday, and the mere thought of taking a DB in the first round sent Mike Salk off a cliff. I think there would be a similar reaction from many other fans. But, if John really sticks to BPA, and DeJean is the highest rated player when they pick, positional need be damned he makes the pick. That's what he did last year, and that seems to have worked out ok.
You draft DeJean because he's an excellent DB, and you play him because he's an excellent DB. Roll back 6 months and his stock really was Top10, and it's since he went down injured the analysists just seemed to forget all this and start dropping him in their minds.
Key Positives: Athletic, quick, smart, great character, elite ball skills, consistent cbf production in bulk, fluid in motion
Key Negatives: Umm.. maybe he's too strong and as a result looks less quick than he actually is.
That's not me exagerating, that's the reality. At CB he's been excellent for Iowa, and because it's Iowa you know he's been coached properly. You pick him and put him in at CB first of all. If MM then sees him transitioning cool, but honestly I fully believe he'd just work out as a CB to make a strong pairing with Devon. It's one that can be overhthought in the pre-draft process, but i'll trust in the tape and feel more than confident DeJean would be a success. The potential versitility is a bonus
Those predicting only usability at Safety i think spend too much time placing and evaluating players based on physical traits and what they "hear" rather than see. Trying to almost force him as a Safety, and just ignoring how good he has been as a Corner. The dudes an elite Corner, draft him as a Corner and reap the rewards, with a Bonus you may also be able to use him as a Safety if you need.
The greatest risk in the draft is visualization of what a player could be instead of evaluating what they are. It is why there are so many busts at QB. Most QBs don’t play in the system they will have to play in the pros so one is projecting how they will play rather than just evaluating how they are playing.
The same is true when envisioning position players at other positions. Drafting a player based on what you think they will do rather than what they are doing is a risk. That was one of the basic premises of “Money Ball.” The safe choice is draft a high performing player who will be asked to do the same things in the pros that they did in college against better competition. But safe doesn’t get you a game changer at 16.
Four years ago the best defensive football player in the draft was Micah Parsons. In college Parsons was primarily a weak side linebacker. a position that didn’t warrant a high pick. He was an incredible athlete that had flashed the coverage skills required of a pro linebacker but was primarily known for his production in stopping the run. He also had shown some ability to rush the qb but really had not done it very often. The argument’s Kenneth’s making concerning DeJean could and were made about Parsons. Kenneth if you were the Cowboys would you have tried to trade down because the corners you desperately needed were gone. After all he didn’t play a premium position and the team had drafted linebackers in two of the past three years in the first round. Sounds like a no brainer. The smart book choice is to either take who ever is left at a premium position or trade down.
The Seahawks should draft DeJean not because they think they can make him the next Hamilton. They should only draft if they believe he is great football player who they can get the most out of wherever they play him.
The greatest risk in the draft is visualization of what a player could be instead of evaluating what they are. It is why there are so many busts at QB. Most QBs don’t play in the system they will have to play in the pros so one is projecting how they will play rather than just evaluating how they are playing.
The same is true when envisioning position players at other positions. Drafting a player based on what you think they will do rather than what they are doing is a risk. That was one of the basic premises of “Money Ball.” The safe choice is draft a high performing player who will be asked to do the same things in the pros that they did in college against better competition. But safe doesn’t get you a game changer at 16.
Four years ago the best defensive football player in the draft was Micah Parsons. In college Parsons was primarily a weak side linebacker. a position that didn’t warrant a high pick. He was an incredible athlete that had flashed the coverage skills required of a pro linebacker but was primarily known for his production in stopping the run. He also had shown some ability to rush the qb but really had not done it very often. The argument’s Kenneth’s making concerning DeJean could and were made about Parsons. Kenneth if you were the Cowboys would you have tried to trade down because the corners you desperately needed were gone. After all he didn’t play a premium position and the team had drafted linebackers in two of the past three years in the first round. Sounds like a no brainer. The smart book choice is to either take who ever is left at a premium position or trade down.
The Seahawks should draft DeJean not because they think they can make him the next Hamilton. They should only draft if they believe he is great football player who they can get the most out of wherever they play him.
DeJean could be a great player, I loved the ball skills he showed on the interception directly over his head. But I really think the Hawks need a pass rushing DT who can stuff the run.
Kenneth, your dedicated and disciplined analysis is always appreciated. I struggled with this one because I believe DeJean is a true dawg--a football player. I'm not sold on him in round one, but I'd take him in round two, and see him as a steal in three. He's got a nose for the ball and seems to have a natural sense of where all other 21 players are on the field. I wouldn't reach for him, but I'd love it if he were part of a move to trade down to late in the 2nd round
Put like that, I just lost my interest in DeJean. And those are wise words, as a rule, regarding positionless players. They have to start with elite status at one position before they can be called versatile, in my opinion. Sherman had limited success trying to move out of his normal position and following a player to the other side. They only tried it twice, I think, and then abandoned it all together.
Anyways, keep narrowing down the list. I;m inclined towards one of the elite DT's. Unless they go for broke with Penix.
Great article. Why do teams think they can project players into roles that they haven't played much on their college teams? Michael Boulware was a star linebacker in college and the Hawks made him a strong safety because he was undersized. I loved the guy, he made some timely interceptions that made me think he was going to be great for a while. IMHO he couldn't shake his linebacker instincts, constantly biting on play-action while other teams took advantage for deep TD's.
My memory of Simmons is that he was a classic tweener: A traits guy whose floor was as low as his ceiling was high, and that the higher he was drafted, the greater the risk. Dejean, whom no one talks about as a top ten pick, seems like a completely different kettle of fish. Plus, by all accounts he has ball skills, which is just about impossible to overvalue in a DB.
FWIW, I’d be thrilled if Witherspoon were moved to the outside. Like it or not, he’s on the small side and in the slot will take as much of a beating as he dishes out. He’ll never play a complete season in the slot, and playing there could shorten a potentially brilliant career. Move him to LCB, please.
We need a stud LB , Nose Tackle and a stud interior lineman much more than another DB. I feel more secure about our DBs than the other positions. This will be a very interesting season.
"It’s not that Isaiah Simmons was doomed to fail because he was “positionless”, as great players will always find a way..."
I wish I know how to put in bold font part of a quote I respond to because I would with this quote starting at the word "as". Please pretend I did.
See, this is where I fall. Cooper DeJean is a great player, and wherever he ends up, I suspect he will find a way. If I want a corner, would I prefer him to Quinyon Mitchell in this draft? Hell no! Is he someone I'd want to line up at outside corner vs Ja'Marr Chase? Yeah, not so much, but as a guy for the role we hoped Jamal Adams would work out in? To my limited knowledge, heck yeah! I've been watching Iowa games (okay only 4 all the way through, but lots of condensed stuff) and good Lord that young man is a human highlight. Part of what gets me is when he gets an INT or returns or otherwise gets the ball in his hands how instinctual he is in traffic, making the only cut that will make him more yardage. Obviously highlights are a bad way to evaluate, but if you want to see him do this 3 times per play, just google "Cooper DeJean highlights" and it's like he had 5 minutes to study how the other personnel was breaking down before he decided the direction to run.
Not to get poiliticky/race/religion but I feel like his skin color plays a factor in how his athleticism is viewed. It's been a while but pretty sure Florio and a lot of other big brains said that Christian Mccaffrey was a Swiss Army Knife and not an every down back. His measurements were all on point, like Cooper's. If Mike Mac wants a guy like him or doesn't for his scheme seems the biggest deciding factor in whether or not he's worth that kind of draft capital.
I have no doubt Spoon will spoof the offenses, as we saw him do with blitzing QBs successfully last year, making him Mack's obvious target for "positionless" player. He was a natural at it with a Rottweiler's sense of attack when turned loose. When asked if he could play Slot, he said sure and went out and showed us his versatility, using no more than instinct and tenacity. Mack's challenge will be convincing all the Secondary to contribute more than their Box demands. "Fool-me-once" doesn't play well over a 17 game season, so we'll need a whole bag of tricks from all the guys. My bet is Pete gave him a Team eager to show they are so much more than their individual parts. JS will be looking to find the guys who show promise in developing into this attitude. There are no ready-made rookies for this. Spoon surprised us all, himself included.
I don't know, Joe. DeJean sounded pretty darn good two days ago in your Five Pairs article.
There you go smashing my dreams with facts and logic. Keep up the good work.
From the tape I have seen, DeJean looks more like a slot corner/safety guy and the player he would be most like on the current Seahawks roster is Coby Bryant. If the Seahawks drafted DeJean it would be to replace Bryant, I think, and he may be a better player. Because he *can* play either position it creates doubt about how he will be used on any given offensive snap, much like Love, and Witherspoon. From a MM point of view do you want that or need it? Can you get that from Coby without spending a 1.16 on a player like DeJean?
So, chess: yes all pieces are moveable but some are more moveable than others! Queens just stand around menacingly most of the time. Rooks are like running backs/linebackers, Bishops like receivers/safeties, but Knights?!! Those guys are the jokers you never know what they are going to do next. A board full of Knights would be a real menace to behold.
And machete or knife? Naw... all you need is your right thumb!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dka54jH9po
We had our own Simmons that was a massive bust and don’t need another. A generational athlete that could not miss; Anthony Simmons
I get some moves , OT to G or C they are similar enough. But after so many of these great athletes that can’t play I am a bit done. I believe we ruin more players that way. I see use doing it with Colby Bryant that latest player I fear is getting jacked around. CB, sot CB and now safety. A Swiss Army knife approach vs mastering one position.
The latest rumors are Adams back as a LB ? Hmm… no thanks.
Who can forget after sweezy an avarage guard the next two cable experiments Drew Nowak and Kristjan Sokol?
Just draft a solid player. Coach them up to master the position that they have probably played since HS.