Imagine if DK looked like a regular athlete...would we put up with his regular flags or drops or lapses in focus. We need to look purely at what he brings to(and subtracts from) the table. EPA was very enlightening when looking into DK. For all the good he does he turns around and gives so much of it right back. I use hoops as an analogy. A guy who dunks vs a guy who lays the ball in. They are both worth 2 pts, but one sells tickets and gets people all excited. I think that might be DK (the dunker).
As far as freak athletes...I coached football for ten years (high school defense) and this is just my experience so please understand this is not a perfect way to analyze NFL talent but it sure worked for me. Some players are really fast and strong and that's great, but I liked players that could process quicker. Diagnosing/recognizing the play and formulating a response all happens before you take your first step. I have so much tape of fast players standing still as the slower players with quicker recognition/formulation fly past them to the play. Speed/Strength coupled with average processing/formulation equates to a good player. But couple the speed/strength with high speed recognition/processing and you can get a hell of a player. The other thing I would look for was elite focus - both short and long term focus. In my experience there are two parts to the play, putting yourself in a position to make the play, then making the play...Running the route, then actually catching the ball...getting into the hole and then actually making the tackle etc.
I feel like both DK and Riq are missing elements of the mental side of the game. I am ready to see what else is out there. Let's break it down so we can rebuild it better. Go Hawks!!
I struggle with what to do with DK. He was part of one of the most prolific passing offenses in the league this year. But we only had 21 passing TDs, with 4 of those in the last game - so, 17 in the 16 games that mattered. The other big time passing offenses put up nearly twice that.
Should we expect a future $30M+ per year receiver to contribute more TDs? Especially a guy whose “freakish” skills are his size and speed. I don’t know . . . Grubb, Geno, DK . . . it’s hard to break up the band, but lots of yards without the points doesn’t work. Feels like we need to trade him or let him play out his contract, and franchise him if he kills it in 2025 and we can’t get him signed.
You can measure height, weight, speed, strength, agility etc. but you can't measure heart, desire or maturity. See Steve Largent!
I can't give DK a fair evaluation because he wasn't used properly by the Hawks. See Ryan Grubb. He has great value because he can take the top off of defenses opening up other recievers routes. His numbers would be top ten if he had a QB who had time to throw the deep ball.
As far as Woolen is concerned, he is young and could be coached up.Keep him unless you have a better alternative.
I think the big thing is, does Coach Mac think these guys fit his vision for the team. Do they live and breathe football? Can they represent being a nightmare to play against? Do they express shocking effort? You can argue no to both players, given the inconsistencies. You can also argue yes to both.
Again using Coach Mac's words......'we love our guys', 'DK is a monster out there, you feel him', 'we have to find more ways to get him the ball more, and not just use him to tilt the field away from other WR's'. He's also said Reek is inconsistent, but they love him. He wants to work with him to get the most out of him.
So I don't know which words are more prescient. Which way does JS see it? And then for DK there may be a money question, and if you're not sold on him still having upside, maybe you let someone else pay him. It will be interesting. If I was a betting person, I'd wager they'll both be on the team next year, but what do I know.
“…which he then made good on the next season by setting a franchise record with 1,303 yards. Where did that guy go?…” That DK played for an OC committed to making him the centerpiece of offense and with a borderline HOF QB who had a peak season.
The NFL as a whole has this obsession with 'athletic prowess'. Not a bad thing necessarily, but only if teams are willing to pair that desire for freak athletes with a willingness to admit then they don't transition into freak football players.
The best teams if the modern era have hit this balance. Patriots and Chiefs both draft/ed some freak athletes to take a chance on, but both moved in pretty quick when they don't work out, but also saved their key picks and money for proven players at the college level or those they knew could be coached up.
Doesn't matter if a WR Dan run a 4.25 40 if he can't catch the ball consistently. Doesn't matter if a CB is 6'6 with a reach the size of a redwood, if he cannot tackle. Using a 5th pick to test them out is fine, just be willing to admit they are not good footballers after a couple of seasons.
Riq has shown he can be a top tier CB, but he has a real consistency issue. But a lot of CBs can flash that potential. Id listen to a trade offer, but in no rush to move him in. Equally not rushing to re-sign him either.
DK has more good tape and while seasons. That's why for me his future is dependent on our new OC. If we get an OC that wants DK, to use him as a field stretcher them I'm ok with holding onto him, even talking about an extension. He's proven he can be a 1300yd receiver in a dual WR Hawks team, so id be willing to go with a new OC commited to that. Sometimes the risk is worth it, because it's not going to cripple us forever.
I like DK and have his T-shirt; I’m too cheap for jerseys anymore. He’s a fun player and cool character. But I would not pay him again. I once thought we had the next Megatron but I now think he might be at his ceiling. WR contracts have gone mad and like with QBs, if you’re paying a top 20 guy like he’s a top 5 guy, it greatly hinders your roster flexibility. What I would imagine he will want is a massive overpay for what we get from him.
I would love to keep him, especially since Tyler is most likely gone and doesn’t appear to have much left in the tank if he stays. But maybe it will be the best for both parties if Dekaylin gets into an offense better suited for him and we use the $ elsewhere. Watching the college playoffs while I type this, it sure looks like there is a ton of talent at that position coming out in the next couple of years. So much that I suspect the salary bubble may be nearing a burst.
These “keep or not” questions aren’t simply about whether they are good enough football players. It’s a question of are these the players you want to pay top salaries to for the next 4 seasons or so.
MM says these are "Seahawk" decisions, as opposed to his decisions, so we'll see how much wheeling and dealing the Seahawks will do, but if you are looking at stats you will not see many players dealt away for relative peanuts unless there is something wrong with their attitude or they just don't respond to coaching. I think both DK and Woolen are good team players with good attitudes and reasonably good performances. I've seen Woolen's this or that stat making him one of the best in the league. He has been burned for a few TD's, but that happens to the best of them. As I recall, didn't DK have a TD against Sauce Gardner?
When a new regime takes over, it is not uncommon to see a teamwide sweep and turnover. Pete turned a good portion of the team over when he became coach. But few are as successful as Pete was. Many don't get results fast enough and are gone before the first batch of rookies become free agents. That often starts a cycle of new regime, and teamwide sweep and on and on.
MM seems like a keeper, and so far he has seemed to like Pete's guys. And why not? Pete and John had started looking for leader types. Guys who loved football. Guys with great attitudes and intelligence. Pete brought back Reed, and got Leonard Williams. And Pete never waivered in his love for and defense of DK, even at his worst. I'm sure it frustrated him, but he always said DK plays with such passion and desire. DK is still polishing his craft and will continue to be a good teammate and coachable, and that's why I doubt he is traded unless DK asks for it. Woolen I agree that he does not embody the type of player MM wants on defense even though he is darn good in coverage. He seems to be unable to become a kamikaze missile like Witherspoon and that''s what EVERYBODY wants.
I think the Chase Ramsey comment is poor. Great they were on championship collegiate squads. Well, more players in NFL than just championship squads. Doug, Tyler, Sherm, Kam etc etc never on championship squads in college.
Could be perception but I do think Riq is coachable. I like the comment here they use their athleticism and have been able to use it successfully. So, now coach. DK may be beyond coaching but when Riq got benched, I saw him out there making tackles. No he’s not Coby or Love anticipation and make stuffs but I saw a different player after the benching.
Seattle would be nuts to move on from either. The notion that the Hawks should is not a serious question. Woolen is (easily) their best cover CB. Metcalf is both a possession receiver and a guy who can flip the field. His falloff this year was because (a) he played hurt after coming back and (b) the former OC was content to use him as a decoy. Re Woolen, how many teams have a 5th-round starting CB who is their best coverage player? I can’t think of any reason to not keep him for the duration of his rookie contract.
Trade. Woolen. Please. Let's get the guys that Coach Macdonald needs. I don't think DK or Woolen will be here next year. Nor Geno, or Lockett. Or Walker, Tomlinson, Fant, or Brown. I hope we get Hank from the Lions to come visit our beautiful slice of the Pacific Northwest. We need a badass OC and it looks like this is that dude. So my fingers are crossed.
I don’t buy arguments that we can’t move on from players because we don’t have a replacement identified. That’s like saying you shouldn’t break up with someone who you isn’t right for you because you have found the right person.
Both DK and Riq have off the chart measurables, and the fact they are in the 98-99 percentile of the top athletes is truly unique. But we also know there are many cautionary tales of similar athletes who never achieved their full potential. Conversely you have some guys who don’t have extraordinary measurables but are hall of fame caliber players because they love football and understand the game at an elite level.
As a head coach what should matter most is, are they world class football players. Do they love football? do they give their best effort every play? I believe that is the type of player MM wants at every position.
DK doesn’t strike me as that type of player and he has been around long enough and he has said that he isn’t going to change. Which makes me believe there isn’t room for growth.
For Riq, I think what would be possible if he played like Sherm or Spoon?! The level of focus and intensity those guys have is what makes them next level. His performance to date would indicate that he doesn’t possess that.
So back to my original point, if MM and JS aren’t sold then we should not pay them, get a return if possible, and find our “true love”.
Am I so far off in thinking that no team would give anything close to a 3rd for Woolen? I would be happy with a 5th, where we got him. He had some takeaways his rookie season and made splash plays which earned him a Pro Bowl. But even then he avoided contact and was only good in zone. He gets pushed around in press coverage, and has to make up with his speed and seems to guess wrong too often. If not for his measurables, he would be a backup. I would say special teamer, but those have to hit.
I’m no NFL GM obviously, just sharing what I see. Man, I would jump at a 3rd. Maybe he had an injury that I am unaware of or something, but it was so frustrating watching him react to a ball carrier like it was a game of two hand tag. He’s so up and down play to play. And there’s been too much down. This is less about “do you want him on your team” than it is, “do you want to pay him to be your starter going forward.” I just don’t see a guy who can’t hit being that piece on a MM defense.
I think he'd be worth the risk of keeping, rather than trading for a 5th round pick, and seeing how another offseason and start to next season go under the new staff. That's not enough value to risk losing a guy with his potential, youth, and experience. A third round pick is a much more interesting question and seems more fair from my perspective, but I've always been a Woolen defender.
Imagine if DK looked like a regular athlete...would we put up with his regular flags or drops or lapses in focus. We need to look purely at what he brings to(and subtracts from) the table. EPA was very enlightening when looking into DK. For all the good he does he turns around and gives so much of it right back. I use hoops as an analogy. A guy who dunks vs a guy who lays the ball in. They are both worth 2 pts, but one sells tickets and gets people all excited. I think that might be DK (the dunker).
As far as freak athletes...I coached football for ten years (high school defense) and this is just my experience so please understand this is not a perfect way to analyze NFL talent but it sure worked for me. Some players are really fast and strong and that's great, but I liked players that could process quicker. Diagnosing/recognizing the play and formulating a response all happens before you take your first step. I have so much tape of fast players standing still as the slower players with quicker recognition/formulation fly past them to the play. Speed/Strength coupled with average processing/formulation equates to a good player. But couple the speed/strength with high speed recognition/processing and you can get a hell of a player. The other thing I would look for was elite focus - both short and long term focus. In my experience there are two parts to the play, putting yourself in a position to make the play, then making the play...Running the route, then actually catching the ball...getting into the hole and then actually making the tackle etc.
I feel like both DK and Riq are missing elements of the mental side of the game. I am ready to see what else is out there. Let's break it down so we can rebuild it better. Go Hawks!!
I struggle with what to do with DK. He was part of one of the most prolific passing offenses in the league this year. But we only had 21 passing TDs, with 4 of those in the last game - so, 17 in the 16 games that mattered. The other big time passing offenses put up nearly twice that.
Should we expect a future $30M+ per year receiver to contribute more TDs? Especially a guy whose “freakish” skills are his size and speed. I don’t know . . . Grubb, Geno, DK . . . it’s hard to break up the band, but lots of yards without the points doesn’t work. Feels like we need to trade him or let him play out his contract, and franchise him if he kills it in 2025 and we can’t get him signed.
You can measure height, weight, speed, strength, agility etc. but you can't measure heart, desire or maturity. See Steve Largent!
I can't give DK a fair evaluation because he wasn't used properly by the Hawks. See Ryan Grubb. He has great value because he can take the top off of defenses opening up other recievers routes. His numbers would be top ten if he had a QB who had time to throw the deep ball.
As far as Woolen is concerned, he is young and could be coached up.Keep him unless you have a better alternative.
I think the big thing is, does Coach Mac think these guys fit his vision for the team. Do they live and breathe football? Can they represent being a nightmare to play against? Do they express shocking effort? You can argue no to both players, given the inconsistencies. You can also argue yes to both.
Again using Coach Mac's words......'we love our guys', 'DK is a monster out there, you feel him', 'we have to find more ways to get him the ball more, and not just use him to tilt the field away from other WR's'. He's also said Reek is inconsistent, but they love him. He wants to work with him to get the most out of him.
So I don't know which words are more prescient. Which way does JS see it? And then for DK there may be a money question, and if you're not sold on him still having upside, maybe you let someone else pay him. It will be interesting. If I was a betting person, I'd wager they'll both be on the team next year, but what do I know.
“…which he then made good on the next season by setting a franchise record with 1,303 yards. Where did that guy go?…” That DK played for an OC committed to making him the centerpiece of offense and with a borderline HOF QB who had a peak season.
The NFL as a whole has this obsession with 'athletic prowess'. Not a bad thing necessarily, but only if teams are willing to pair that desire for freak athletes with a willingness to admit then they don't transition into freak football players.
The best teams if the modern era have hit this balance. Patriots and Chiefs both draft/ed some freak athletes to take a chance on, but both moved in pretty quick when they don't work out, but also saved their key picks and money for proven players at the college level or those they knew could be coached up.
Doesn't matter if a WR Dan run a 4.25 40 if he can't catch the ball consistently. Doesn't matter if a CB is 6'6 with a reach the size of a redwood, if he cannot tackle. Using a 5th pick to test them out is fine, just be willing to admit they are not good footballers after a couple of seasons.
Riq has shown he can be a top tier CB, but he has a real consistency issue. But a lot of CBs can flash that potential. Id listen to a trade offer, but in no rush to move him in. Equally not rushing to re-sign him either.
DK has more good tape and while seasons. That's why for me his future is dependent on our new OC. If we get an OC that wants DK, to use him as a field stretcher them I'm ok with holding onto him, even talking about an extension. He's proven he can be a 1300yd receiver in a dual WR Hawks team, so id be willing to go with a new OC commited to that. Sometimes the risk is worth it, because it's not going to cripple us forever.
I like DK and have his T-shirt; I’m too cheap for jerseys anymore. He’s a fun player and cool character. But I would not pay him again. I once thought we had the next Megatron but I now think he might be at his ceiling. WR contracts have gone mad and like with QBs, if you’re paying a top 20 guy like he’s a top 5 guy, it greatly hinders your roster flexibility. What I would imagine he will want is a massive overpay for what we get from him.
I would love to keep him, especially since Tyler is most likely gone and doesn’t appear to have much left in the tank if he stays. But maybe it will be the best for both parties if Dekaylin gets into an offense better suited for him and we use the $ elsewhere. Watching the college playoffs while I type this, it sure looks like there is a ton of talent at that position coming out in the next couple of years. So much that I suspect the salary bubble may be nearing a burst.
These “keep or not” questions aren’t simply about whether they are good enough football players. It’s a question of are these the players you want to pay top salaries to for the next 4 seasons or so.
MM says these are "Seahawk" decisions, as opposed to his decisions, so we'll see how much wheeling and dealing the Seahawks will do, but if you are looking at stats you will not see many players dealt away for relative peanuts unless there is something wrong with their attitude or they just don't respond to coaching. I think both DK and Woolen are good team players with good attitudes and reasonably good performances. I've seen Woolen's this or that stat making him one of the best in the league. He has been burned for a few TD's, but that happens to the best of them. As I recall, didn't DK have a TD against Sauce Gardner?
When a new regime takes over, it is not uncommon to see a teamwide sweep and turnover. Pete turned a good portion of the team over when he became coach. But few are as successful as Pete was. Many don't get results fast enough and are gone before the first batch of rookies become free agents. That often starts a cycle of new regime, and teamwide sweep and on and on.
MM seems like a keeper, and so far he has seemed to like Pete's guys. And why not? Pete and John had started looking for leader types. Guys who loved football. Guys with great attitudes and intelligence. Pete brought back Reed, and got Leonard Williams. And Pete never waivered in his love for and defense of DK, even at his worst. I'm sure it frustrated him, but he always said DK plays with such passion and desire. DK is still polishing his craft and will continue to be a good teammate and coachable, and that's why I doubt he is traded unless DK asks for it. Woolen I agree that he does not embody the type of player MM wants on defense even though he is darn good in coverage. He seems to be unable to become a kamikaze missile like Witherspoon and that''s what EVERYBODY wants.
I think the Chase Ramsey comment is poor. Great they were on championship collegiate squads. Well, more players in NFL than just championship squads. Doug, Tyler, Sherm, Kam etc etc never on championship squads in college.
Could be perception but I do think Riq is coachable. I like the comment here they use their athleticism and have been able to use it successfully. So, now coach. DK may be beyond coaching but when Riq got benched, I saw him out there making tackles. No he’s not Coby or Love anticipation and make stuffs but I saw a different player after the benching.
Seattle would be nuts to move on from either. The notion that the Hawks should is not a serious question. Woolen is (easily) their best cover CB. Metcalf is both a possession receiver and a guy who can flip the field. His falloff this year was because (a) he played hurt after coming back and (b) the former OC was content to use him as a decoy. Re Woolen, how many teams have a 5th-round starting CB who is their best coverage player? I can’t think of any reason to not keep him for the duration of his rookie contract.
Trade. Woolen. Please. Let's get the guys that Coach Macdonald needs. I don't think DK or Woolen will be here next year. Nor Geno, or Lockett. Or Walker, Tomlinson, Fant, or Brown. I hope we get Hank from the Lions to come visit our beautiful slice of the Pacific Northwest. We need a badass OC and it looks like this is that dude. So my fingers are crossed.
I don’t buy arguments that we can’t move on from players because we don’t have a replacement identified. That’s like saying you shouldn’t break up with someone who you isn’t right for you because you have found the right person.
Both DK and Riq have off the chart measurables, and the fact they are in the 98-99 percentile of the top athletes is truly unique. But we also know there are many cautionary tales of similar athletes who never achieved their full potential. Conversely you have some guys who don’t have extraordinary measurables but are hall of fame caliber players because they love football and understand the game at an elite level.
As a head coach what should matter most is, are they world class football players. Do they love football? do they give their best effort every play? I believe that is the type of player MM wants at every position.
DK doesn’t strike me as that type of player and he has been around long enough and he has said that he isn’t going to change. Which makes me believe there isn’t room for growth.
For Riq, I think what would be possible if he played like Sherm or Spoon?! The level of focus and intensity those guys have is what makes them next level. His performance to date would indicate that he doesn’t possess that.
So back to my original point, if MM and JS aren’t sold then we should not pay them, get a return if possible, and find our “true love”.
You think DK doesn’t give his best effort? He’s one of the most intense players on the team—second only to Spoon.
I don’t think he gives his best effort on every play. How can you give your best effort if you allow others to get in your head?
I agree. I don't think his issue is lack of effort, but lack of discipline and maybe situational football IQ/instinct.
Very well said bruh. Couldn't agree more.
Am I so far off in thinking that no team would give anything close to a 3rd for Woolen? I would be happy with a 5th, where we got him. He had some takeaways his rookie season and made splash plays which earned him a Pro Bowl. But even then he avoided contact and was only good in zone. He gets pushed around in press coverage, and has to make up with his speed and seems to guess wrong too often. If not for his measurables, he would be a backup. I would say special teamer, but those have to hit.
The line to trade a third round pick for Woolen would stretch from Seattle to Miami. You don’t know what you got ‘til it’s gone…
I’m no NFL GM obviously, just sharing what I see. Man, I would jump at a 3rd. Maybe he had an injury that I am unaware of or something, but it was so frustrating watching him react to a ball carrier like it was a game of two hand tag. He’s so up and down play to play. And there’s been too much down. This is less about “do you want him on your team” than it is, “do you want to pay him to be your starter going forward.” I just don’t see a guy who can’t hit being that piece on a MM defense.
I think he'd be worth the risk of keeping, rather than trading for a 5th round pick, and seeing how another offseason and start to next season go under the new staff. That's not enough value to risk losing a guy with his potential, youth, and experience. A third round pick is a much more interesting question and seems more fair from my perspective, but I've always been a Woolen defender.