Ken, thanks for referencing the March 25th article. I went back and read it more closely. You asked, "please FIGHT ME back on that so that we can get to the TRUTH instead of playing his game of agendas that misleads Seahawks fans for no reason". Thanks for asking for my loyalty and not my devotion!
You wrote, "What I am setting out to do with this article is to make sure you’re aware of the real facts about Carter because it’s not me but others who are attempting to manipulate you and make sure that you only know half-truths about his character, his conditioning concerns, his football abilities, and the actual record of evidence weighing against him relative to all of his peers and many other 21-year-olds."
I don't think you achieved the above. By failing to address the primary concern about Carter - which is his FOOTBALL character, you did not provide the complete set of facts like you claimed you would.
As you rightfully pointed out, prospects such as Sapp, Moss, Clark and such came with questionable "MORAL" character - I'm using that term very loosely here - became very good players. "MORAL" character includes problems with smoking weed, trouble with the law, and domestic violence.
But they did not come with questionable FOOTBALL character, i.e practice habits, passion for playing football, and competitive spirit like Carter does. It is very important to separate that out. You mentioned Malik McDowell. He came with the exact same FOOTBALL character concerns as Carter does. But he did not come with "MORAL" character concerns like the other ones.
You wrote, “I’d just focus more on what his coaches and teammates and people coming to his defense are saying and make excuses for everything else.” I found it very perplexing that you did not detail the things that his coaches have said about him - so far that's really the few concrete information the public really have but it's the most relevant to our discussion.
In The Athletic article published in February, Bruce Feldman interviewed Carter's position coach Tray Turner and he spoke glowingly of Carter's worldly athletic traits. He also said how Carter is kind-hearted and helped out a poor teammate. But that's not helpful because we already know he's very talented and John Schneider himself a Catholic is not drafting him to replace POPE Francis.
More importantly, Coach Turner also has this to say, "But I know how he is within our organization, and at the end of the day, I like for my guys to have a little edge, so where people may determine as ‘character issues’ may just be a guy who has a little edge that may be laid-back." Laid back could possibly be intepreted in different ways but for Carter, it is more likely someone who is not motivated. Why? because his head coach Kirby Smart has gone on record saying as such.
“Jalen is definitely talented, and you have to push,” Georgia coach Kirby Smart said. “You have to be willing to push yourself and give great effort in practice because that is what set Devonte Wyatt apart. He was not that player when he got here. He was not that talented of a player when he got here. He worked himself and lost weight. He got stronger and quicker. He wasn’t the player in year one or two that he was in year three, four, or five."
I am sure you are keenly aware of these articles. I find it really odd that you seem to skirt around Carter's FOOTBALL character. You correctly pointed out glaring signs such as huge hole at DL, defense performance, and PC's side of ball, to reject the null hypothesis, which is Carter is not a Seahawk. Yet I'm curious as to why you did not discuss how Carter's FOOTBALL character would reconcile with what JS AND PC had said about the lessons they learned from 2022 draft. My biggest objection is the process you're using to analyze whether or not Carter should be drafted by Seahawks at five seems flawed.
They had won five straight and were 8-2. Finished the season at 9-8. Kitna started twelve games in 2000 (Brock Huard started the other four!). By then, Mike Holmgren has seen enough and traded for Matt Hasselbeck.
This is gonna be a year when I need to lean heavier on my seasider’s opinions on the WR class. I don’t have a confident feel on the group. Maybe Day 2 does end up better than Day 1.
I think Pete would like Bijan too and we would draft him at 20, but I think mocking Flowers at 20 is more likely because Bijan is very likely to be gone at 20. I am not as high on Flowers as Kenneth is but I do not think he will be there in the late second round and probably will not be there at 37 either.
Yes, that is probably true. He'll be gone. JSN will be gone, too. So BPA, and one thing I can say about Flowers is he is an alpha male with a big personality. A leader type. I don't hold my own opinion all that high on anyone.
Would be reasonably happy with Avila at #52, and i get why media would predict as such - Avila is pretty high on most big boards, Seattle needs IOL help, therefore you put the highest rated IOL to them. But I feel it's far more likely would draft Wypler here (who is available in McShay's mock). Wypler far better fits the mold for IOL's drafted/signed in the Waldron offence, has more natural ability at C which is a more pressing need than G, and is I feel the better football player anyway. I'd also see Mauch being a more likely pick here, just for his freakish ability and genuinely stunning flexibility from C right out to T. I'll trade a little rawness/wildness from Mauch for the potential upside. Avila is the "safe" pick, and "safe" is just kinda boring.
Zay Flowers, wow. KenJoe, did you use one of those scent-sending-thru-internet apps while you were chopping up potent onions ? ! ... 'cause i could feel them.
Here's hoping! Could have another uplifting personality like Tyler Lockett on our team.
Gotta root for this young man and his Family whichever team he goes to.
Which one of these is not like the other (college career edition):
Player 1: games 24; tackles 56; tfl 26; sacks 10
Player 2: tackles 176; sacks 19.5
Player 3: games 35; tackles 44; tfl 18.5; sacks 6
Player 4: games 54; tackles 125; tfl 49.5; sacks 24
Player 5: games 42; tackles 293; tfl 19; sacks 32
One of these players should not be so casually put in the same sentence has great players. Maybe the upside is physically similar, but the actual production you are projecting from is practically from another world. Highlight tapes match this too.
Please stop making inane comparisons, even if others do.
Oh please. I look at stats & wonder: if stats are why you pick players, why do you interview or watch tape? Were there any double-teams involved for Carter? Do you think offenses have evolved over time (perhaps using VCR's, or even COMPUTERS) to try to shut down defensive game-wreckers?
I look at Mr. Carter and see someone who is like N Suh, but is quicker, slightly lighter, not as strong, but almost as effective. I went back & looked at tape on Suh, and it was very similar. I don't think he is quite as good as Quinnen Williams, but he may get there.
Also, top 5 picks or “blue chippers” should have all of the above: tape, character, stats and fit (league, team, scheme, etc.). If you have to wonder why they don’t have the stats, then that isn’t a blue chip prospect, in my mind.
why expect him to dominate against pros if he didn’t even dominate the sisters of the poor out of Conf level games these guys play?
Please share this Carter tape. I can’t find it. I’ve watched multiple highlight videos and they have 5-8 fantastic plays, along with 5-8 average/normal run stops at or after the LoS and then end. Suh’s otoh was 13 min long of mostly blowing up run plays 4 yards deep or sacking the qb.
Also you imply that our new tech somehow removes groupthink and reduces bust rates. You have any evidence for that? Bc we still have lots of prospects that bust even with all-22 access and the ability to analyze social media personality and stuff completely unavailable 20 yrs ago.
Scott, thanks for taking the time to provide some data. Do you happen to know the total snaps played for all of them? I have read reports pointing out that Kirby Smart rotates the dline a lot and tends to feature the linebackers.
Nope and I could barely find any stats at all for Sapp and White. (Only spent 5 min, but still)
I too have heard Carter played far fewer snaps. But to me, that should amplify his stats since he doesn’t have to grind the whole game but can come for max impact.
Playing around talent should make more opportunities not less. But what do I know...
That's an interesting way to look at it. I look at it more like batting average in baseball and shooting percentage in basketball.
I personally like his performance on the field a lot. His hand fight and quickness in the game against OSU was phenomenal. But FOOTBALL character is just important to me.
I feel like I poo-poo Carter at every turn, but besides the off-field stuff and how much his head might be in the game; my biggest gripe is that he's only good for about 30 snaps a game. That could all change if he bought into an NFL strength and conditioning program and matured some, both physically and mentally. But those feel like giant "ifs" for a top 5 pick.
Remember Sam Adams, who played alongside Cortez at the end of his career? Carter reminds me of him. Gifted as all get out, but his motor only had so much gas in it. Only when Adams wasn't rotated out, he just took plays off.
I'm not sure if it's a fun fact or not, but in the early 90's my then girlfriend and I took a 7 week road trip car camping from North Carolina to Seattle and watched 2 games at the Kingdome (Denver and Cinci, both wins). I had a Kennedy jersey and sent her to the pro shop to get any jersey she wanted. She got Sam Adams, "because his butt was big and there's a beer named after him." 7 weeks in a Toyota Tacoma together was more than our relationship could take and we parted ways shortly upon getting back home, but I still have fond memories.
Thanks. Honestly the whole trip made a great story. We had budgeted mostly campsites but after spending a night in a hotel watching Dateline (where a couple was murdered in the woods), my ex was terrified to camp or sleep outside. We soon had to have our parents wire us money. She also had no sense of direction. I had to drive the entire trip because sure as rain she would stop to pee and I would suddenly realize that the sun was on the other side of my face. I insisted we camp Thursday night through Sunday morning before the game at Game Farm Park near-ish Seattle and it never stopped raining the whole 3 days. It was a tragicomic trip from takeoff until our return home.
I remember Sam! He had a long career and was awfully good at the top of his game. The front four of Adams, Kennedy, Phillip Daniels and Michael Sinclair was formidable.
Thanks Greg! I was hoping we have college snap count for the other players like Sapp and Suh. Thats wishful thinking on my part. I think sacks/pressure/TFL as percent of snap count may be better for comparison.
I saw Sapp in the Kingdome. I don’t know if it was the best individual defensive performance I’ve seen, but it was the most memorable. One sack and a forced fumble, and so much time in our backfield that he might as well have been in the huddle. One on play, Sapp lost his helmet and didn’t miss a beat. He had Kitna and Dilfer throwing off their back foot the whole game. Dilfer, Kitna, and Shaun King were sacked eight times and Kitna had five INTs plus the FF. Jon Kitna must still feel the pain from that encounter. Just a great football player.
For the game, the Seattle offense was FG-Punt-Punt-Punt-INT-INT-Punt / Punt-INT-Punt-Punt-Fumble-INT-INT.
Was that the game that broke Kitna? I thought we were riding on a winning streak and then never the same after. It might also be the game Galloway came back as well
Speaking as one who is, Carter might be an introvert. If so, there’s no shell for him to come out of. This is relevant to his success or failure to the extent that he’s encouraged to be himself.
I grew up shy as all get out and even today would rather listen than speak but I'm proof people can outgrow shyness and be outgoing. Being tall as a kid I played a lot of basketball and for the longest time I always preferred to play defense or make assists to scoring. I wonder if this is how it is for Carter.
Ken, thanks for referencing the March 25th article. I went back and read it more closely. You asked, "please FIGHT ME back on that so that we can get to the TRUTH instead of playing his game of agendas that misleads Seahawks fans for no reason". Thanks for asking for my loyalty and not my devotion!
You wrote, "What I am setting out to do with this article is to make sure you’re aware of the real facts about Carter because it’s not me but others who are attempting to manipulate you and make sure that you only know half-truths about his character, his conditioning concerns, his football abilities, and the actual record of evidence weighing against him relative to all of his peers and many other 21-year-olds."
I don't think you achieved the above. By failing to address the primary concern about Carter - which is his FOOTBALL character, you did not provide the complete set of facts like you claimed you would.
As you rightfully pointed out, prospects such as Sapp, Moss, Clark and such came with questionable "MORAL" character - I'm using that term very loosely here - became very good players. "MORAL" character includes problems with smoking weed, trouble with the law, and domestic violence.
But they did not come with questionable FOOTBALL character, i.e practice habits, passion for playing football, and competitive spirit like Carter does. It is very important to separate that out. You mentioned Malik McDowell. He came with the exact same FOOTBALL character concerns as Carter does. But he did not come with "MORAL" character concerns like the other ones.
You wrote, “I’d just focus more on what his coaches and teammates and people coming to his defense are saying and make excuses for everything else.” I found it very perplexing that you did not detail the things that his coaches have said about him - so far that's really the few concrete information the public really have but it's the most relevant to our discussion.
In The Athletic article published in February, Bruce Feldman interviewed Carter's position coach Tray Turner and he spoke glowingly of Carter's worldly athletic traits. He also said how Carter is kind-hearted and helped out a poor teammate. But that's not helpful because we already know he's very talented and John Schneider himself a Catholic is not drafting him to replace POPE Francis.
More importantly, Coach Turner also has this to say, "But I know how he is within our organization, and at the end of the day, I like for my guys to have a little edge, so where people may determine as ‘character issues’ may just be a guy who has a little edge that may be laid-back." Laid back could possibly be intepreted in different ways but for Carter, it is more likely someone who is not motivated. Why? because his head coach Kirby Smart has gone on record saying as such.
“Jalen is definitely talented, and you have to push,” Georgia coach Kirby Smart said. “You have to be willing to push yourself and give great effort in practice because that is what set Devonte Wyatt apart. He was not that player when he got here. He was not that talented of a player when he got here. He worked himself and lost weight. He got stronger and quicker. He wasn’t the player in year one or two that he was in year three, four, or five."
I am sure you are keenly aware of these articles. I find it really odd that you seem to skirt around Carter's FOOTBALL character. You correctly pointed out glaring signs such as huge hole at DL, defense performance, and PC's side of ball, to reject the null hypothesis, which is Carter is not a Seahawk. Yet I'm curious as to why you did not discuss how Carter's FOOTBALL character would reconcile with what JS AND PC had said about the lessons they learned from 2022 draft. My biggest objection is the process you're using to analyze whether or not Carter should be drafted by Seahawks at five seems flawed.
References:
1. https://theathletic.com/4227888/2023/02/20/jalen-carter-nfl-combine-draft/
2. https://www.dawgnation.com/football/georgia-football-jalen-carter-jordandavis/SF7Y476OUZHNXEYRJPR2NX5WPU/
They had won five straight and were 8-2. Finished the season at 9-8. Kitna started twelve games in 2000 (Brock Huard started the other four!). By then, Mike Holmgren has seen enough and traded for Matt Hasselbeck.
Avila or Schmitz would be nice. A Receiver at #20 is mis-placed. WE NEED PLAYERS TO FILL SPOTS, NOT QUICK REMEDIES.
I don't get the Flowers love. He'd be a decent late second or third round pick, but at 20? I'd rather Bijan, or another DT.
This is gonna be a year when I need to lean heavier on my seasider’s opinions on the WR class. I don’t have a confident feel on the group. Maybe Day 2 does end up better than Day 1.
I think Pete would like Bijan too and we would draft him at 20, but I think mocking Flowers at 20 is more likely because Bijan is very likely to be gone at 20. I am not as high on Flowers as Kenneth is but I do not think he will be there in the late second round and probably will not be there at 37 either.
Yes, that is probably true. He'll be gone. JSN will be gone, too. So BPA, and one thing I can say about Flowers is he is an alpha male with a big personality. A leader type. I don't hold my own opinion all that high on anyone.
Would be reasonably happy with Avila at #52, and i get why media would predict as such - Avila is pretty high on most big boards, Seattle needs IOL help, therefore you put the highest rated IOL to them. But I feel it's far more likely would draft Wypler here (who is available in McShay's mock). Wypler far better fits the mold for IOL's drafted/signed in the Waldron offence, has more natural ability at C which is a more pressing need than G, and is I feel the better football player anyway. I'd also see Mauch being a more likely pick here, just for his freakish ability and genuinely stunning flexibility from C right out to T. I'll trade a little rawness/wildness from Mauch for the potential upside. Avila is the "safe" pick, and "safe" is just kinda boring.
I think deep down we would all cheer for any scenario you mentioned. A solid path to better long time interior line play would be great!
Satisfying 4 picks.
Also satisfying: your Chapelle/Rick James reference!
Zay Flowers, wow. KenJoe, did you use one of those scent-sending-thru-internet apps while you were chopping up potent onions ? ! ... 'cause i could feel them.
Here's hoping! Could have another uplifting personality like Tyler Lockett on our team.
Gotta root for this young man and his Family whichever team he goes to.
Which one of these is not like the other (college career edition):
Player 1: games 24; tackles 56; tfl 26; sacks 10
Player 2: tackles 176; sacks 19.5
Player 3: games 35; tackles 44; tfl 18.5; sacks 6
Player 4: games 54; tackles 125; tfl 49.5; sacks 24
Player 5: games 42; tackles 293; tfl 19; sacks 32
One of these players should not be so casually put in the same sentence has great players. Maybe the upside is physically similar, but the actual production you are projecting from is practically from another world. Highlight tapes match this too.
Please stop making inane comparisons, even if others do.
1 is Quinnen Williams
2 is Warren Sapp
3 is Jalen Carter
4 is Ndamukong Suh
5 is Reggie White
Reggie's numbers are ridiculous! 293 tackles in 42 games is 7 tackles a game on the d line
Oh please. I look at stats & wonder: if stats are why you pick players, why do you interview or watch tape? Were there any double-teams involved for Carter? Do you think offenses have evolved over time (perhaps using VCR's, or even COMPUTERS) to try to shut down defensive game-wreckers?
I look at Mr. Carter and see someone who is like N Suh, but is quicker, slightly lighter, not as strong, but almost as effective. I went back & looked at tape on Suh, and it was very similar. I don't think he is quite as good as Quinnen Williams, but he may get there.
Also, top 5 picks or “blue chippers” should have all of the above: tape, character, stats and fit (league, team, scheme, etc.). If you have to wonder why they don’t have the stats, then that isn’t a blue chip prospect, in my mind.
why expect him to dominate against pros if he didn’t even dominate the sisters of the poor out of Conf level games these guys play?
Please share this Carter tape. I can’t find it. I’ve watched multiple highlight videos and they have 5-8 fantastic plays, along with 5-8 average/normal run stops at or after the LoS and then end. Suh’s otoh was 13 min long of mostly blowing up run plays 4 yards deep or sacking the qb.
Also you imply that our new tech somehow removes groupthink and reduces bust rates. You have any evidence for that? Bc we still have lots of prospects that bust even with all-22 access and the ability to analyze social media personality and stuff completely unavailable 20 yrs ago.
Scott, thanks for taking the time to provide some data. Do you happen to know the total snaps played for all of them? I have read reports pointing out that Kirby Smart rotates the dline a lot and tends to feature the linebackers.
Nope and I could barely find any stats at all for Sapp and White. (Only spent 5 min, but still)
I too have heard Carter played far fewer snaps. But to me, that should amplify his stats since he doesn’t have to grind the whole game but can come for max impact.
Playing around talent should make more opportunities not less. But what do I know...
That's an interesting way to look at it. I look at it more like batting average in baseball and shooting percentage in basketball.
I personally like his performance on the field a lot. His hand fight and quickness in the game against OSU was phenomenal. But FOOTBALL character is just important to me.
I feel like I poo-poo Carter at every turn, but besides the off-field stuff and how much his head might be in the game; my biggest gripe is that he's only good for about 30 snaps a game. That could all change if he bought into an NFL strength and conditioning program and matured some, both physically and mentally. But those feel like giant "ifs" for a top 5 pick.
Remember Sam Adams, who played alongside Cortez at the end of his career? Carter reminds me of him. Gifted as all get out, but his motor only had so much gas in it. Only when Adams wasn't rotated out, he just took plays off.
I'm not sure if it's a fun fact or not, but in the early 90's my then girlfriend and I took a 7 week road trip car camping from North Carolina to Seattle and watched 2 games at the Kingdome (Denver and Cinci, both wins). I had a Kennedy jersey and sent her to the pro shop to get any jersey she wanted. She got Sam Adams, "because his butt was big and there's a beer named after him." 7 weeks in a Toyota Tacoma together was more than our relationship could take and we parted ways shortly upon getting back home, but I still have fond memories.
Great story there Chuck!
Thanks. Honestly the whole trip made a great story. We had budgeted mostly campsites but after spending a night in a hotel watching Dateline (where a couple was murdered in the woods), my ex was terrified to camp or sleep outside. We soon had to have our parents wire us money. She also had no sense of direction. I had to drive the entire trip because sure as rain she would stop to pee and I would suddenly realize that the sun was on the other side of my face. I insisted we camp Thursday night through Sunday morning before the game at Game Farm Park near-ish Seattle and it never stopped raining the whole 3 days. It was a tragicomic trip from takeoff until our return home.
I remember Sam! He had a long career and was awfully good at the top of his game. The front four of Adams, Kennedy, Phillip Daniels and Michael Sinclair was formidable.
If you look at the snap counts of the rest of the Georgia DL Carter was right around the other starters:
Nazir Stackhouse – 13 games – 419 snaps
Mykel Williams – 13 games – 349 snaps
Jalen Carter – 10 games – 308 snaps
Zion Logue – 13 games – 306 snaps
Warren Brinson – 13 games – 249 snaps
Tramel Walthour – 13 games – 245 snaps
Tyrion Ingram-Dawkins – 12 games – 184 snaps
Bear Alexander – 10 games – 139 snaps
Bill Norton – 7 games – 46 snaps
Christen Miller – 4 games – 45 snaps
Jonathan Jefferson – 4 games – 24 snaps
Shone Washington – 1 game – 5 snaps
CJ Madden – 1 game – 3 snaps
And that was only in 10 games so if you take an average of 30 and add three more games he's at 398 which is only about 20 less than Stackhouse.
I was trying to find snap counts per game to see high temps affected his snap counts, especially in Georgia, but couldn't find anything.
Thanks Greg! I was hoping we have college snap count for the other players like Sapp and Suh. Thats wishful thinking on my part. I think sacks/pressure/TFL as percent of snap count may be better for comparison.
I saw Sapp in the Kingdome. I don’t know if it was the best individual defensive performance I’ve seen, but it was the most memorable. One sack and a forced fumble, and so much time in our backfield that he might as well have been in the huddle. One on play, Sapp lost his helmet and didn’t miss a beat. He had Kitna and Dilfer throwing off their back foot the whole game. Dilfer, Kitna, and Shaun King were sacked eight times and Kitna had five INTs plus the FF. Jon Kitna must still feel the pain from that encounter. Just a great football player.
For the game, the Seattle offense was FG-Punt-Punt-Punt-INT-INT-Punt / Punt-INT-Punt-Punt-Fumble-INT-INT.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199911280sea.htm
Was that the game that broke Kitna? I thought we were riding on a winning streak and then never the same after. It might also be the game Galloway came back as well
My god, I think watching that game would have killed my love affair with this team. Unspeakable!
My first year as a season ticket holder. I was so awed by the Tampa Bay that it didn’t occur to me to cry!
Reggie White, what a beast!
"I won’t be shocked if John Schneider dials 1-800-FLOWERS"
And starts panicking, not understanding why the guy won't take his draft pick and keeps saying he "has the wrong number."
Speaking as one who is, Carter might be an introvert. If so, there’s no shell for him to come out of. This is relevant to his success or failure to the extent that he’s encouraged to be himself.
I grew up shy as all get out and even today would rather listen than speak but I'm proof people can outgrow shyness and be outgoing. Being tall as a kid I played a lot of basketball and for the longest time I always preferred to play defense or make assists to scoring. I wonder if this is how it is for Carter.
I would not hate these picks.