- I meant to add that the Seahawks have drafted 5 Hall of Famers, but that's only so far. Bobby Wagner is a lock for Canton, Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, and Russell Wilson are no less than "good bets". We could do the Hall of Fame debate thing if you want....I don't think Sherman Thomas or Wilson are locks, but I guess Sherman is the closest, Wilson is the next closest, and Thomas might have done too much to tarnish his resume at the end. If he had played a couple more seasons and just faded off into our memories, he might be a lock. Wilson is a Super Bowl winner and a Super Bowl loser and he has made nine Pro Bowls. Is that better than, say, Matthew Stafford? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just wondering what Hall of Fame voters who don't care about the Seahawks will believe.
- This is just for drafted Seahawks. Not players the Seahawks didn't draft, like Marshawn Lynch, Steve Largent, etc.
- Random question but who do you think is a better receiver: Joey Galloway or DK Metcalf? I wanted to compare their first 5 years, but that's kind of hard to do in different eras and with Galloway missing most of his 5th and 6th seasons.
Bobby will definitely get a Jacket. I also think Sherm has the best odds because he was a true lockdown CB for most of his years and was feared by his opponents. He also had an attitude that lasted very well in our and other observers minds.
With the LOB being in the race for one of the best Defenses of all time there could very well be more than 1 HOF out of it.
DK seems to have turned the corner with his maturity and desire to be a great football player, not just a great athlete that plays football. If he really has taken this crucial step, I think we might be looking at the best receiver Seattle has ever had. If he regresses and goes back to obnoxious penalties and untimely drops, then he will be a good receiver but maybe not even JG level.
I have a higher bar for Halls-Of-Fame than most, I think. The reason is that as time goes on, there are so many more players that were great. I think the HOF litmus test should be that the player(s) were a defining part of an era or a difference making player for the league. I realize that by that test some current players might not qualify, but I am in favor of moving them and admitting new "great" players that don't quite live up to my HOF bar into a room, courtyard, vault, or garden or greatness, where they all are grouped.
I don't think Russ is a HOFer. He was great, and he won us a Super Bowl, but are we going to put every QB who won one in the hall?? Sherman, maybe. I say that because he was the best at his position and modified how the position could be played or what a CB could look like. He was like the Derrick Henry of CBs (yes, I think DH is a HOFer).
Steve Hutchinson was my answer. This wasn't a free agent loss, but I feel it sort of deserves an 'asterisked' inclusion as a very painful player lost forever. Kenny Easley was the first 'best player in the league' conversation member that the club had pre-Walter Jones, seemed like our one shot to say the very best lived right here in Seattle with his collection of teeth. To seem him traded for a pittance, have kidney failure, and become dis-enfranchised really left a raw wound inside me as a young football loving boy. Kenny Easley to this day is my favorite Seahawks player, built in the Xavier McDaniel mold that wrote the manual for later 'Seahawks Baddies' to follow. I'm looking at you 'Wham Bam, thank you Kam'. I was so happy to see Paul mend the bridge to the Ring of Honor. You are long gone, but never forgotten Kenny.
KJ Wright is my answer. The defense was never the same. Everyone started throwing screen passes against the Seahawks. They could have rotated him with Brooks. They became the team that couldn’t throw a screen pass and couldn’t defend one.
The binding of the book was broken! May the 12s be with you and Go Seahawks!
I suppose you should incentivize subscribers to contribute more as 'super' joes, but it kind of feels like the cheese got moved when regular paying joes aren't included in surveys etc. Then publishing their comments and being asked to comment on their comments feels like hearing someone brag about a party you weren't invited to. Sorry, whine mode off.
I sympathize with your feelings on this. I will say that I like having 3 tiers of involvement. I feel like I get a huge value as a Regular Joe, but I am glad there is an option for people who want a little more involvement. I regularly get quoted, highlighted, and called-out by Ken, and I am a Regular Joe. It seems to me that there is a big jump from subscriber to RJ, then a smaller jump to Super Joe, and I think it makes sense for this pay model to be that way.
I totally understand how you feel. I will say that the comments posted above about which G loss hurt the most, those were from regular joes and I regularly include regular joes into articles, or at least that's what I believe I do. I apologize if I've done anything to make anyone feel excluded. Ultimately what the breakdown of the two tiers gets you is this:
RJ, $5: 400+ articles per year, 100-150 of them are bonus articles that free members don't get, access to comments, access to archives, access to DMs, supporting seaside joe like a business instead of like a volunteer, and that is so greatly appreciated
SJ, $10: everything that the regular joes get, plus once in a blue moon up until the very recent decision to do it bi-weekly they get an email to ask a question of me.
I don't know what you would decide to do if you were in my position, if writing was your sole source of income and you're trying to think of fair ways to allow a small percentage of your paid subscribers to pay more money because they want to and not because you're forcing them to and then feeling guilty so you try and come up with a fair compromise and this is it, but I'm the guinea pig in many ways. I have to build the bridge to figure it out.
you don't have to apologize, I understand where you're coming from. At the end of the day, after 5+ years of just doing this newsletter, I can't promise that there won't be other incentives for people who decide that they can afford $10 per month and they want to pay $10 per month as the newsletter grows. And that's if I'm very lucky and it does grow because this could all come crashing down for me at any moment and I have a family. There will be times in the future when it feels like seaside joe has to change. I hope that as many as you as possible decide to continue to go with me on that ride. Thanks for sharing your feelings on the matter.
Thanks. I am and will remain a loyal 'Joe!' You have built something great here and deserve our continued support.
We all get hit with requests for subscription fees for various things on a regular basis. Yours is one of the few that provides unique value and more than earns the support it receives.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....
Appreciate that it didn't quite fit the criteria but, if I rephrase the question to match my answer, Sherm was the toughest departure to take. He was still competent, maybe not a great $ value but far from a liability, and he went to THE NINERS. OUCH. I'm newer to the 12s so I didn't have as much of a connection to Hutch but I can certainly see the case for him.
always remember (the coaches will) that injuries happen -- even with the new improved O line, Geno is still vulnerable so Howell needs to be ready and up to speed; I see that as more probable than that Geno will be "bad" -- of course the O line players are vulnerable too .. no fair tripping or stepping on other players' feet, seen too much of that last year, stay aggressive and let Geno backpedal safely if necessary
Free agency has only really been a "thing" in the past 25yrs when the rules were changed due to lawsuits and/or grievances brought by players. So, being newer fans doesn't necessarily mean y'all have seen way fewer losses. We oldheads know that just because y'all were introduced to a game that had free agency, it wasn't always like that, and it has really only been a relatively recent thing
I can’t imagine a scenario where Geno Smith is not starting while the Hawks are in playoff contentions. If Geno Smith at all doesn’t start, that means the Seahawks have major issues.
Both JS and Chuck Arnold privately have spoken extremely highly of Geno Smith. Based on what Grubb and Mike Mac have said publicly, they are behind him 100%.
Geno is coming off 2022 when he was an MVP candidate and 2023 where he went 8-7 with one of the worst defenses and worst offensive lines in football. I can’t imagine lining up and seeing Micah Parsons across from Jason Peters and delivering a football. But he diced up the cowboys that day.
To me, the situation looks like just about every other starting QB in the NFL… they are starting til out of playoff contention (or injured).
Hopefully Geno starts all year and gets back into the MVP race
It hurt so bad to see Steve Hutchinson go. The GM tried to get cute and save what I seem to recall was less than a million $. The poison pill showed up and Seattle was screwed. I was bummed for years about that.
Kevin Mawae was a great player on a dismal team. I remember him losing it and repeatedly shoving the player he was blocking WELL after the whistle blew. I feel like it was the season finale in maybe his last year with the Hawks and frustration got the best of him. At the time I remember thinking "what's his problem' and didn't think much of it when he signed with the Jets. Boy was I wrong, he turned into a star in NY
As mentioned previously, Sherman leaving AND going to the Niners was a tough one to see. I can understand why they let him go, and it gave Richard some incentive to prove the Hawks wrong in that scenario.
I'm going to mention a guy I hated see go even more, and that's Shawn Springs. Part of the reason why he left was he couldn't stay healthy, but that crazy good 1998 season was so endearing. I think the injuries really sapped his ability, which is a damn shame. I probably have an irrational love of the guy, but I think we all have that kind of guy in our hearts.
Ken, so many good choices. Probably gotta say Hutch, Bobby, and Sherm. Russ wore out his welcome with his arrogance and money obsession. My misc. choices would be Jerry Rice, TJ Hush….., Steven Hauska and Nick Bellore and his big personality. Maybe the Boz?
Almost forgot about Angry Doug!! Love him as a person and a player. Never counted us out with him, Kearse, Lockett and Russ. Best 3-5 years of my Hawks fandom. Unfortunately, I was still a Cowgirls fan until 2012, so all I remember from that era was Dallas beat us like 59-3 on Thanksgiving in like 82-84? I enjoyed it at the time. Of course I liked Landry the most. Classy man.
Wow! This article covers much ground. The soapbox I wanna stand on is most painful FA loss:
Hutchinson by a mile. I think it points to what ultimately brought down the PC era - treating O & D lines as a group of plug & play individuals, de-emphasizing a UNIT assembly.
As another post mentions, Hutchinson loss began the dismantling of an expertly curated Holmgren O line UNIT. There's no weak guy to double team in a Jones-Hutchinsen-Unger UNIT. PC/JS fumbled away Hutchinson (by their own admission), causing a solid but older Jones to be more exposed. Jones retired a year after Hutchinson left. Pete is an expert talent judge who prized "difference maker" athletes over (O & D line) UNITS - he made it work for awhile. Lynch, Avril, Bennett - check, check, check. But in college, talent is more widely dispersed than NFL. College "difference makers" make more of a difference at USC than in NFL. Percy Harvin? Unger for a tight-end who didn't block & wanted to be paid like a wide-receiver? Hawks did ok w/center-Britt. The rest of O-line became a rotating cast of 2nd tier FAs & draftees (many were late round "value picks"); never an intentionally molded unit a la Holmgren. O-line is where Pete saved money. This worked while Russ was mobile and young enough to take a beating. But running QB's don't last in the NFL! They let Okung walk, tried to replace Russ' blind side w/who?, realized "oh yeah LT is important", signed Duane Brown.
Similar things happened w/D-Line (Off topic sorry, but I'm in mid-rant!)
Bennett traded, Avril retired due to injury, then a similar piecemeal approach applied to D-line.
Pass rush sucks? We'll add 1 & done FA Jefferson. Pass rush sucks next year? We'll add 1 & done Clowney. Pass rush sucks again? We'll add Jamal & safety-blitz gimmick. Q: Year after - "why doesn't Jamal get home anymore?" A: "Because everyone saw & game planned for last years safety-blitz gimmick" (duh).
Thus endeth the rant, at least Hawks have Hutchinson on staff now.
In contrast to PC, I think Macdonald has focus on O & D line rebuild-as-unit. I think it'll take more than 1 year.
MORE comments...
- I meant to add that the Seahawks have drafted 5 Hall of Famers, but that's only so far. Bobby Wagner is a lock for Canton, Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, and Russell Wilson are no less than "good bets". We could do the Hall of Fame debate thing if you want....I don't think Sherman Thomas or Wilson are locks, but I guess Sherman is the closest, Wilson is the next closest, and Thomas might have done too much to tarnish his resume at the end. If he had played a couple more seasons and just faded off into our memories, he might be a lock. Wilson is a Super Bowl winner and a Super Bowl loser and he has made nine Pro Bowls. Is that better than, say, Matthew Stafford? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just wondering what Hall of Fame voters who don't care about the Seahawks will believe.
- This is just for drafted Seahawks. Not players the Seahawks didn't draft, like Marshawn Lynch, Steve Largent, etc.
- Random question but who do you think is a better receiver: Joey Galloway or DK Metcalf? I wanted to compare their first 5 years, but that's kind of hard to do in different eras and with Galloway missing most of his 5th and 6th seasons.
Joey Galloway. I have difficulty getting past the detrimental behavior aspects of DK, for what it’s worth.
Bobby will definitely get a Jacket. I also think Sherm has the best odds because he was a true lockdown CB for most of his years and was feared by his opponents. He also had an attitude that lasted very well in our and other observers minds.
With the LOB being in the race for one of the best Defenses of all time there could very well be more than 1 HOF out of it.
But that could be my 12 glasses.
DK seems to have turned the corner with his maturity and desire to be a great football player, not just a great athlete that plays football. If he really has taken this crucial step, I think we might be looking at the best receiver Seattle has ever had. If he regresses and goes back to obnoxious penalties and untimely drops, then he will be a good receiver but maybe not even JG level.
I have a higher bar for Halls-Of-Fame than most, I think. The reason is that as time goes on, there are so many more players that were great. I think the HOF litmus test should be that the player(s) were a defining part of an era or a difference making player for the league. I realize that by that test some current players might not qualify, but I am in favor of moving them and admitting new "great" players that don't quite live up to my HOF bar into a room, courtyard, vault, or garden or greatness, where they all are grouped.
I don't think Russ is a HOFer. He was great, and he won us a Super Bowl, but are we going to put every QB who won one in the hall?? Sherman, maybe. I say that because he was the best at his position and modified how the position could be played or what a CB could look like. He was like the Derrick Henry of CBs (yes, I think DH is a HOFer).
At this point, Galloway over DK, but I think DK could pass him over the next year or two.
DK. He’s such a scary threat, draws so much attention, and he’s only getting better.
Steve Hutchinson was my answer. This wasn't a free agent loss, but I feel it sort of deserves an 'asterisked' inclusion as a very painful player lost forever. Kenny Easley was the first 'best player in the league' conversation member that the club had pre-Walter Jones, seemed like our one shot to say the very best lived right here in Seattle with his collection of teeth. To seem him traded for a pittance, have kidney failure, and become dis-enfranchised really left a raw wound inside me as a young football loving boy. Kenny Easley to this day is my favorite Seahawks player, built in the Xavier McDaniel mold that wrote the manual for later 'Seahawks Baddies' to follow. I'm looking at you 'Wham Bam, thank you Kam'. I was so happy to see Paul mend the bridge to the Ring of Honor. You are long gone, but never forgotten Kenny.
I wanted to get something in there about Kenny, but couldn’t find the right angle. Thanks for your comment about him!
KJ Wright is my answer. The defense was never the same. Everyone started throwing screen passes against the Seahawks. They could have rotated him with Brooks. They became the team that couldn’t throw a screen pass and couldn’t defend one.
The binding of the book was broken! May the 12s be with you and Go Seahawks!
I suppose you should incentivize subscribers to contribute more as 'super' joes, but it kind of feels like the cheese got moved when regular paying joes aren't included in surveys etc. Then publishing their comments and being asked to comment on their comments feels like hearing someone brag about a party you weren't invited to. Sorry, whine mode off.
I sympathize with your feelings on this. I will say that I like having 3 tiers of involvement. I feel like I get a huge value as a Regular Joe, but I am glad there is an option for people who want a little more involvement. I regularly get quoted, highlighted, and called-out by Ken, and I am a Regular Joe. It seems to me that there is a big jump from subscriber to RJ, then a smaller jump to Super Joe, and I think it makes sense for this pay model to be that way.
I totally understand how you feel. I will say that the comments posted above about which G loss hurt the most, those were from regular joes and I regularly include regular joes into articles, or at least that's what I believe I do. I apologize if I've done anything to make anyone feel excluded. Ultimately what the breakdown of the two tiers gets you is this:
RJ, $5: 400+ articles per year, 100-150 of them are bonus articles that free members don't get, access to comments, access to archives, access to DMs, supporting seaside joe like a business instead of like a volunteer, and that is so greatly appreciated
SJ, $10: everything that the regular joes get, plus once in a blue moon up until the very recent decision to do it bi-weekly they get an email to ask a question of me.
I don't know what you would decide to do if you were in my position, if writing was your sole source of income and you're trying to think of fair ways to allow a small percentage of your paid subscribers to pay more money because they want to and not because you're forcing them to and then feeling guilty so you try and come up with a fair compromise and this is it, but I'm the guinea pig in many ways. I have to build the bridge to figure it out.
you don't have to apologize, I understand where you're coming from. At the end of the day, after 5+ years of just doing this newsletter, I can't promise that there won't be other incentives for people who decide that they can afford $10 per month and they want to pay $10 per month as the newsletter grows. And that's if I'm very lucky and it does grow because this could all come crashing down for me at any moment and I have a family. There will be times in the future when it feels like seaside joe has to change. I hope that as many as you as possible decide to continue to go with me on that ride. Thanks for sharing your feelings on the matter.
Thanks. I am and will remain a loyal 'Joe!' You have built something great here and deserve our continued support.
We all get hit with requests for subscription fees for various things on a regular basis. Yours is one of the few that provides unique value and more than earns the support it receives.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....
Thank you!
Appreciate that it didn't quite fit the criteria but, if I rephrase the question to match my answer, Sherm was the toughest departure to take. He was still competent, maybe not a great $ value but far from a liability, and he went to THE NINERS. OUCH. I'm newer to the 12s so I didn't have as much of a connection to Hutch but I can certainly see the case for him.
always remember (the coaches will) that injuries happen -- even with the new improved O line, Geno is still vulnerable so Howell needs to be ready and up to speed; I see that as more probable than that Geno will be "bad" -- of course the O line players are vulnerable too .. no fair tripping or stepping on other players' feet, seen too much of that last year, stay aggressive and let Geno backpedal safely if necessary
Hutch, Unger, Jones,( Cam Bam,Bobby Wags, Russ ,Sherman and Pete are future llocks)!!
Free agency has only really been a "thing" in the past 25yrs when the rules were changed due to lawsuits and/or grievances brought by players. So, being newer fans doesn't necessarily mean y'all have seen way fewer losses. We oldheads know that just because y'all were introduced to a game that had free agency, it wasn't always like that, and it has really only been a relatively recent thing
I can’t imagine a scenario where Geno Smith is not starting while the Hawks are in playoff contentions. If Geno Smith at all doesn’t start, that means the Seahawks have major issues.
Both JS and Chuck Arnold privately have spoken extremely highly of Geno Smith. Based on what Grubb and Mike Mac have said publicly, they are behind him 100%.
Geno is coming off 2022 when he was an MVP candidate and 2023 where he went 8-7 with one of the worst defenses and worst offensive lines in football. I can’t imagine lining up and seeing Micah Parsons across from Jason Peters and delivering a football. But he diced up the cowboys that day.
To me, the situation looks like just about every other starting QB in the NFL… they are starting til out of playoff contention (or injured).
Hopefully Geno starts all year and gets back into the MVP race
Geno number: ONE. As in one ugly injury. One broken bone, or one nasty concussion.
It hurt so bad to see Steve Hutchinson go. The GM tried to get cute and save what I seem to recall was less than a million $. The poison pill showed up and Seattle was screwed. I was bummed for years about that.
Kevin Mawae was a great player on a dismal team. I remember him losing it and repeatedly shoving the player he was blocking WELL after the whistle blew. I feel like it was the season finale in maybe his last year with the Hawks and frustration got the best of him. At the time I remember thinking "what's his problem' and didn't think much of it when he signed with the Jets. Boy was I wrong, he turned into a star in NY
Dickson origin story
As mentioned previously, Sherman leaving AND going to the Niners was a tough one to see. I can understand why they let him go, and it gave Richard some incentive to prove the Hawks wrong in that scenario.
I'm going to mention a guy I hated see go even more, and that's Shawn Springs. Part of the reason why he left was he couldn't stay healthy, but that crazy good 1998 season was so endearing. I think the injuries really sapped his ability, which is a damn shame. I probably have an irrational love of the guy, but I think we all have that kind of guy in our hearts.
I watched his dad, Ron play for the Cowboys and he was a solid dude. Did it all.
Ken, so many good choices. Probably gotta say Hutch, Bobby, and Sherm. Russ wore out his welcome with his arrogance and money obsession. My misc. choices would be Jerry Rice, TJ Hush….., Steven Hauska and Nick Bellore and his big personality. Maybe the Boz?
Almost forgot about Angry Doug!! Love him as a person and a player. Never counted us out with him, Kearse, Lockett and Russ. Best 3-5 years of my Hawks fandom. Unfortunately, I was still a Cowgirls fan until 2012, so all I remember from that era was Dallas beat us like 59-3 on Thanksgiving in like 82-84? I enjoyed it at the time. Of course I liked Landry the most. Classy man.
Wow! This article covers much ground. The soapbox I wanna stand on is most painful FA loss:
Hutchinson by a mile. I think it points to what ultimately brought down the PC era - treating O & D lines as a group of plug & play individuals, de-emphasizing a UNIT assembly.
As another post mentions, Hutchinson loss began the dismantling of an expertly curated Holmgren O line UNIT. There's no weak guy to double team in a Jones-Hutchinsen-Unger UNIT. PC/JS fumbled away Hutchinson (by their own admission), causing a solid but older Jones to be more exposed. Jones retired a year after Hutchinson left. Pete is an expert talent judge who prized "difference maker" athletes over (O & D line) UNITS - he made it work for awhile. Lynch, Avril, Bennett - check, check, check. But in college, talent is more widely dispersed than NFL. College "difference makers" make more of a difference at USC than in NFL. Percy Harvin? Unger for a tight-end who didn't block & wanted to be paid like a wide-receiver? Hawks did ok w/center-Britt. The rest of O-line became a rotating cast of 2nd tier FAs & draftees (many were late round "value picks"); never an intentionally molded unit a la Holmgren. O-line is where Pete saved money. This worked while Russ was mobile and young enough to take a beating. But running QB's don't last in the NFL! They let Okung walk, tried to replace Russ' blind side w/who?, realized "oh yeah LT is important", signed Duane Brown.
Similar things happened w/D-Line (Off topic sorry, but I'm in mid-rant!)
Bennett traded, Avril retired due to injury, then a similar piecemeal approach applied to D-line.
Pass rush sucks? We'll add 1 & done FA Jefferson. Pass rush sucks next year? We'll add 1 & done Clowney. Pass rush sucks again? We'll add Jamal & safety-blitz gimmick. Q: Year after - "why doesn't Jamal get home anymore?" A: "Because everyone saw & game planned for last years safety-blitz gimmick" (duh).
Thus endeth the rant, at least Hawks have Hutchinson on staff now.
In contrast to PC, I think Macdonald has focus on O & D line rebuild-as-unit. I think it'll take more than 1 year.