I was thinking about the trade for Shaheed some more on my commute. I'm wondering whether the trade was more about the run game than the pass game. As far as I can tell with my limited access to NFL stats, the stacked box rate against our offense has dropped from above league average to slightly below league average the last few games. I have noticed that some teams use 5 man fronts in lieu of 8 in the box as a variation on a theme, so it's not cut and dried identifying a defenses focus on the run versus the pass. But at least superficially, it seems that teams are starting to realize that perhaps they've been focused too much on the wrong thing.
This trade has the potential to expedite that trend further. If you want to double JSN, you're more likely to leave a safety over the top on a lot of plays. And if you don't want to leave Shaheed and Horton alone on your 2nd and 3rd best CB's, you can't drop your strong safety down either. So perhaps we'll see more two high safety formations. If we do, it should give us numbers in the run game.
Total speculation on my part, but Shaheed may not need catches to generate production. I'll try to pay more attention to pre-snap alignment on early downs when he's on the field, and then see what Darnold chooses to do on those plays.
It might be my imagination but over the last few games, I feel like I have seen more empty sets, 11 personnel and 4 wide receiver sets. This would over course influence the opposing defenses formation. I looked for a resource that would break down our offensive personnel counts by quarter but did not find anything.
It seemed on one of the Horton TDs last game, the over the top safety was so locked in on JSN, he didn’t even notice Horton had beaten the press corner right of the line and was breaking free deep. He didn’t take his eyes off of JSN. Tunnel vision.
"Darnold has never had a season as good as the one he’s currently having on the Seahawks ... [partly} because of the offensive line ..."
Yet, I can remember there were those among us who said SD was only good because of Minnesota's superior O-Line, and he was doomed to a bad year in Seattle. Geno is/was better, SD is a downgrade. Sigh. If we aren't actually experts, at least we're self-confident.
It’s impossible to be an expert on 32 teams. What they do is read tweets from other “experts” and repackage the same sound bites without any actual research or verification. You may not be an expert, but you do dig further than any of those experts. If you work 60 hours a week as an NFL expert, you have less than 2 hours a week to spend on each of the 32 teams. It’s a real bad situation.
Totally with you. Was saying same thing. Coaching personnel, and replacing Laken (oh how horrid that was). Huge differences. Thank you for those QB stats (traveling sacks). Good stuff.
Side note. Our new Receiver just stated he already wants to stay here and sign new contract. (Yes most say that kind of thing but some in NY or Cleveland or Dallas etc might not).
Side note. I actually went to Browns game. Went to the Stadium. Working outside Columbus. Could fly home and back. Browns at home vs Carolina. Got ticket on aisle only about 15 rows behind Panthers bench. And I got to go to Canton on my drive north. Got my pics of Largent and Big Walt, Tez. Right after our SB crushing win so RW jersey was there. Really awesome. And since I couldn’t stand the big RB playing QB I’m rooting for the Brownies, wearing my big winter Seahawks jacket. Everyone was great except one drunk idiot. And Browns won, like one of maybe 2 wins.
The O-line variables you cite of player upgrade, the Kubiak game plan, coaching (blocking scheme and technique), and a quick release QB are spot on making our O-line MUCH better. Front five dudes often get better 4-5 yrs in. Strength Coaches help young linemen to get stronger each year for example. Bradford got stronger and leaner without sacrificing weight last off season. Skill players may lose a step after 5 yrs or more but linemen can continue to get, what Big Cat calls, "old man strong". I like the potential our front five has right now and can see Cabeldue becoming a really solid Guard with coaching.
Aagh. All this positive talking up our hawks is starting to make me nervous. I love the way they’re going, but let’s not put the mozz on them. I prefer when they’re being underestimated by everyone. Then the wins are always sweeter and losses aren’t as sour. What’s not going so well SJ? 😁
Get em Kenneth! Some of us saw this coming and I'm glad you're rubbing the nations nose in it. Most media is just a bunch of parrots...but not SSJ! Keep up the good work.
Great to see the difference in sack and pressure numbers being so clear. To the naked eye, you can see the difference - and those stats are pretty stark. I wonder how much this is driven by the heavy packages and quick hitter offense that Kubiak has been running, and if more of Horton and Shaheed stretching the field (adding a half second or so?) might change the numbers a bit.
Most preseason content is pretty much a way to kill an offseason. Speculate, form opinions without research, and post, post, post. Thankfully that's not the way it's done here.
I didn't KNOW the o-line would be better, but for all the reasons you mention, I allowed that they certainly could be. Now that they have proven they ARE better, I think by the end of the year you could argue they will be better still. Zabel will be an ascending player for several more years. Sundell is an ascending player. I think the ceiling on AB is pretty close already, but he's proven to be serviceable if you use him to his strengths......and wide zone is not to his strengths.
The other piece of this is the (incorrect) assumption the Seahawks didn't invest in their o-line, when nothing could be further from the truth. Since 2021 they've invested heavily. Have their investments always worked out, no. But it wasn't like they weren't taking swings. Perhaps their talent evaluation was a little suspect, but it wasn't through lack of 'investment'.
And here they sit with Cross (drafted), Zabel (drafted), Sundell (UDFA), Bradford (drafted), and Lucas (drafted). Looks to me like they were investing their little hearts out, it just took a while to come together is all......and it took new coaching to make that happen! You can have all the ingredients, but without a cook, that's all you have.
The rebuild, as I call it, started with the RW trade. We are now in year 4 and hitting our stride (and health).
The line is all drafted (or rookies) since 2022.
9/11 offensive starters are drafted since 2022.
The building is coming together in 2025 and it looks quite nice.
There were some hiccups along the way. Losing Damien Lewis was rough and JS lamented it. But much to his credit he changed. He tried to get Fries and then used a first round pick on a Guard.
Also, I don’t have the numbers in front me, but the line has actually been pretty good when Lucas has been healthy.
Unfortunately last year not only did we lose Lucas, we lost Fant also game 1. We threw the ball 56 times in Detroit with Stone Forsych and RT.
So, just health alone is an upgrade. You add in the coaching upgrades …specifically the use of heavy personnel and boom.
Dream come true = good o line play.
I agree with you too - they can get better and likely will. O-lineman don’t peak til about 30 years old.
Quite a foundation has been built since RW left the building.
"We threw the ball 56 times in Detroit with Stone Forsych at RT."
Sam's high water mark so far this year is the shootout game with Tampa Bay, at 34 pass attempts.......without Stone Forsyth at RT. 33 attempts at the Steelers, and 31 against Houston.
Sunday night, we replaced much of our Defense's Trench and I hardly noticed. I haven't seen charting for who played our Offense's Trench, but hold no doubt the aim is the same: get our Ready guys up to speed and confidently rotate them in. As my Mom liked to say: "A Change is as good as a Rest". I am not seeing ANY of our players lacking confidence they can perform their taskings. That is Coaching at its' finest.
A lot of my OLine talk last year was "Fix the LG situation by replacing Turnstyle Tomlinson. Pick a RG and stick with them". Bradford, like Haynes and Sundell had their issues, but the chop and change was clearly hurting them all too.
Zabel fixed. Bradford stabilised (similarly at Centre), and after a few hiccups is growing week by week. Shocking!!! The more time pases the more I'm staggered how much Grubb damaged the team last year.
The challenge might just be how to pay everyone. But perhaps we now see the value in good OLine and without Discount Pete's influence might pay to keep good things going.
MM stated early on that the Hawks would NOT be changing the O line starts during the season so we all need to get off AB back. Remember these are great athletes but there still young men learning, some faster then others.
I think it’s also worthy of note, Bradford had his best game, at least from a pass pro standpoint, against the Moons. He’s still very young, and while i do think his mobility is not a great fit for a wide zone run scheme, it does seem like he’s still working hard at improving and perhaps still has room to grow.
It also helps that the coaches seem to have faith in him (so far). That is not lost on an employee (player) and usually makes them try harder for the boss.
Definitely! It’s not like he’s the only player struggling with the run game. If he can keep improving, he could be a fine option for next year. I do think they will still pick up another interior offensive lineman in free agency or the draft and open up the competition
I know! I had trouble wrapping my head around the trade but, as I thought about it, I found myself really liking the trade. There has been some talk about Kupp possibly retiring after this year and the injury might be more long term than thought. It's better than drafting a receiver because we are getting a proven product already, and one that comes with some well earned accolades.
I see Kupp becoming a coach. All those years with McVay? All the work he puts in on film? Going to all the QB meetings? Make him WR coach with the Hawks, then passing game coordinator, the OC. We need to keep Kk for three more years, then Kupp takes over.
Interesting take. Kupp is a worker and studier, teacher, loves ball, gets to stay near his home base. Who knows? Could work.
Heard Dan Viens on Seahawks Forever say that Kubiak is not likely to leave as a head coach for a few years as he's not been successful as one, past, has talent, but not the HC factor for the NFL, and will have to prove himself more.
Hope he does stay and takes us not just to a SB, but also a win or 2, along with our top notch defense. Who woulda thought a couple of years ago, we'd be where we are today? John's choice of MM is such a big factor!
Yes, if KK sticks around for a few years and Kupp hangs up his cleats, three years under KK coupled with the McVey years and his obvious obsession with work and preparation, not only at WR but QB as well could make him a longer term option for OC.
Speed kills defaces. Cover 2 means it much harder stack the box and define the run. Shaheed will play some snaps Sunday at full speed and LAR will watch!
And we cut no one loose to gain him. Each of our 70 guys know their particular contribution is crucial to fielding us a Championship this year and next.
I was thinking about the trade for Shaheed some more on my commute. I'm wondering whether the trade was more about the run game than the pass game. As far as I can tell with my limited access to NFL stats, the stacked box rate against our offense has dropped from above league average to slightly below league average the last few games. I have noticed that some teams use 5 man fronts in lieu of 8 in the box as a variation on a theme, so it's not cut and dried identifying a defenses focus on the run versus the pass. But at least superficially, it seems that teams are starting to realize that perhaps they've been focused too much on the wrong thing.
This trade has the potential to expedite that trend further. If you want to double JSN, you're more likely to leave a safety over the top on a lot of plays. And if you don't want to leave Shaheed and Horton alone on your 2nd and 3rd best CB's, you can't drop your strong safety down either. So perhaps we'll see more two high safety formations. If we do, it should give us numbers in the run game.
Total speculation on my part, but Shaheed may not need catches to generate production. I'll try to pay more attention to pre-snap alignment on early downs when he's on the field, and then see what Darnold chooses to do on those plays.
Fun to contemplate these things.
It might be my imagination but over the last few games, I feel like I have seen more empty sets, 11 personnel and 4 wide receiver sets. This would over course influence the opposing defenses formation. I looked for a resource that would break down our offensive personnel counts by quarter but did not find anything.
It seemed on one of the Horton TDs last game, the over the top safety was so locked in on JSN, he didn’t even notice Horton had beaten the press corner right of the line and was breaking free deep. He didn’t take his eyes off of JSN. Tunnel vision.
Noticed that too. JSN had the attention of 3 folks, and meanwhile Horton had thoroughly beaten his guy.
The stress on the DBs facing the Hawks just went to nervous breakdown levels with the addition of Shaheed.
Kyler Murry to IR. That's a little crazy.
I think he’s been cut à la Russ style. No additional dead cap come cut day. Get him healthy, bring him back, slice and dice.
Feels like Kyler's career is wrapping up with the Cards.
Now he takes the Russ tour of the NFL
Or he follows a Darnold/Mayfield type path.
Neither Darnold nor Mayfield got a second contract at extreme top dollar like Kyler. He’s in the Russ bracket of QBs that hit and then sputtered out.
Just as long as it isn't with the Niners or Rams.
dont the Jets need a QB?
"Darnold has never had a season as good as the one he’s currently having on the Seahawks ... [partly} because of the offensive line ..."
Yet, I can remember there were those among us who said SD was only good because of Minnesota's superior O-Line, and he was doomed to a bad year in Seattle. Geno is/was better, SD is a downgrade. Sigh. If we aren't actually experts, at least we're self-confident.
It’s impossible to be an expert on 32 teams. What they do is read tweets from other “experts” and repackage the same sound bites without any actual research or verification. You may not be an expert, but you do dig further than any of those experts. If you work 60 hours a week as an NFL expert, you have less than 2 hours a week to spend on each of the 32 teams. It’s a real bad situation.
I would also like to add one thing: No abandoning the run. Can't get sacked running the ball.
That's almost Sack-religeous.
Totally with you. Was saying same thing. Coaching personnel, and replacing Laken (oh how horrid that was). Huge differences. Thank you for those QB stats (traveling sacks). Good stuff.
Side note. Our new Receiver just stated he already wants to stay here and sign new contract. (Yes most say that kind of thing but some in NY or Cleveland or Dallas etc might not).
I grew up in Canton Ohio and no one on the Clowns say they want to sign a new contract in Cleveland.
Side note. I actually went to Browns game. Went to the Stadium. Working outside Columbus. Could fly home and back. Browns at home vs Carolina. Got ticket on aisle only about 15 rows behind Panthers bench. And I got to go to Canton on my drive north. Got my pics of Largent and Big Walt, Tez. Right after our SB crushing win so RW jersey was there. Really awesome. And since I couldn’t stand the big RB playing QB I’m rooting for the Brownies, wearing my big winter Seahawks jacket. Everyone was great except one drunk idiot. And Browns won, like one of maybe 2 wins.
:-)). lol.
The O-line variables you cite of player upgrade, the Kubiak game plan, coaching (blocking scheme and technique), and a quick release QB are spot on making our O-line MUCH better. Front five dudes often get better 4-5 yrs in. Strength Coaches help young linemen to get stronger each year for example. Bradford got stronger and leaner without sacrificing weight last off season. Skill players may lose a step after 5 yrs or more but linemen can continue to get, what Big Cat calls, "old man strong". I like the potential our front five has right now and can see Cabeldue becoming a really solid Guard with coaching.
Aagh. All this positive talking up our hawks is starting to make me nervous. I love the way they’re going, but let’s not put the mozz on them. I prefer when they’re being underestimated by everyone. Then the wins are always sweeter and losses aren’t as sour. What’s not going so well SJ? 😁
I am not SSJ but can definitely answer this one. Hot dog prices at Lumen field are among the highest in the NFL at $8.49! 😡
But is it a hot dog, or a Uli’s sausage? ;)
Yet more sour news. 4 players on the injury report DNP. Bobo, Kupp, Jobe, Young. That enough to take the shine off things?
Yeah that’s not great.
More sour news for you. We waived Jerrick Reed II to make room for Rashid and he was claimed by Tampa.
Wait until after the first weekly injury report. News on Jones could be not so good.
IdahoFred, enough! I want to keep my rose colored glasses on. 😄
Get em Kenneth! Some of us saw this coming and I'm glad you're rubbing the nations nose in it. Most media is just a bunch of parrots...but not SSJ! Keep up the good work.
Great to see the difference in sack and pressure numbers being so clear. To the naked eye, you can see the difference - and those stats are pretty stark. I wonder how much this is driven by the heavy packages and quick hitter offense that Kubiak has been running, and if more of Horton and Shaheed stretching the field (adding a half second or so?) might change the numbers a bit.
Most preseason content is pretty much a way to kill an offseason. Speculate, form opinions without research, and post, post, post. Thankfully that's not the way it's done here.
I didn't KNOW the o-line would be better, but for all the reasons you mention, I allowed that they certainly could be. Now that they have proven they ARE better, I think by the end of the year you could argue they will be better still. Zabel will be an ascending player for several more years. Sundell is an ascending player. I think the ceiling on AB is pretty close already, but he's proven to be serviceable if you use him to his strengths......and wide zone is not to his strengths.
The other piece of this is the (incorrect) assumption the Seahawks didn't invest in their o-line, when nothing could be further from the truth. Since 2021 they've invested heavily. Have their investments always worked out, no. But it wasn't like they weren't taking swings. Perhaps their talent evaluation was a little suspect, but it wasn't through lack of 'investment'.
And here they sit with Cross (drafted), Zabel (drafted), Sundell (UDFA), Bradford (drafted), and Lucas (drafted). Looks to me like they were investing their little hearts out, it just took a while to come together is all......and it took new coaching to make that happen! You can have all the ingredients, but without a cook, that's all you have.
The rebuild, as I call it, started with the RW trade. We are now in year 4 and hitting our stride (and health).
The line is all drafted (or rookies) since 2022.
9/11 offensive starters are drafted since 2022.
The building is coming together in 2025 and it looks quite nice.
There were some hiccups along the way. Losing Damien Lewis was rough and JS lamented it. But much to his credit he changed. He tried to get Fries and then used a first round pick on a Guard.
Also, I don’t have the numbers in front me, but the line has actually been pretty good when Lucas has been healthy.
Unfortunately last year not only did we lose Lucas, we lost Fant also game 1. We threw the ball 56 times in Detroit with Stone Forsych and RT.
So, just health alone is an upgrade. You add in the coaching upgrades …specifically the use of heavy personnel and boom.
Dream come true = good o line play.
I agree with you too - they can get better and likely will. O-lineman don’t peak til about 30 years old.
Quite a foundation has been built since RW left the building.
Considering what’s going on in Minnesota, it’s GREAT we didn’t sign Fries. Rather have AB and $$$ than a barely better AB.
"We threw the ball 56 times in Detroit with Stone Forsych at RT."
Sam's high water mark so far this year is the shootout game with Tampa Bay, at 34 pass attempts.......without Stone Forsyth at RT. 33 attempts at the Steelers, and 31 against Houston.
Absolutely amazing.
Great stats there.
Sunday night, we replaced much of our Defense's Trench and I hardly noticed. I haven't seen charting for who played our Offense's Trench, but hold no doubt the aim is the same: get our Ready guys up to speed and confidently rotate them in. As my Mom liked to say: "A Change is as good as a Rest". I am not seeing ANY of our players lacking confidence they can perform their taskings. That is Coaching at its' finest.
For our backup OL, it looks like Jones was in for 4 snaps, Cabeldue was in for 3 snaps and Olu was in for 3 snaps. Richman was not rotated in
A lot of my OLine talk last year was "Fix the LG situation by replacing Turnstyle Tomlinson. Pick a RG and stick with them". Bradford, like Haynes and Sundell had their issues, but the chop and change was clearly hurting them all too.
Zabel fixed. Bradford stabilised (similarly at Centre), and after a few hiccups is growing week by week. Shocking!!! The more time pases the more I'm staggered how much Grubb damaged the team last year.
The challenge might just be how to pay everyone. But perhaps we now see the value in good OLine and without Discount Pete's influence might pay to keep good things going.
MM stated early on that the Hawks would NOT be changing the O line starts during the season so we all need to get off AB back. Remember these are great athletes but there still young men learning, some faster then others.
Double rec on this, Chip mac.
I think it’s also worthy of note, Bradford had his best game, at least from a pass pro standpoint, against the Moons. He’s still very young, and while i do think his mobility is not a great fit for a wide zone run scheme, it does seem like he’s still working hard at improving and perhaps still has room to grow.
It also helps that the coaches seem to have faith in him (so far). That is not lost on an employee (player) and usually makes them try harder for the boss.
One thing I have never questioned is Bradford's heart. I hope he continues to improve and has a long NFL career.
Double rec for this one, Don Ellis.
Definitely! It’s not like he’s the only player struggling with the run game. If he can keep improving, he could be a fine option for next year. I do think they will still pick up another interior offensive lineman in free agency or the draft and open up the competition
Agree, agree and agree.🙂
My heads is still spinning from the trade yesterday. I have my “hmm” face o. 🤔 🏈🏟️
I know! I had trouble wrapping my head around the trade but, as I thought about it, I found myself really liking the trade. There has been some talk about Kupp possibly retiring after this year and the injury might be more long term than thought. It's better than drafting a receiver because we are getting a proven product already, and one that comes with some well earned accolades.
I see Kupp becoming a coach. All those years with McVay? All the work he puts in on film? Going to all the QB meetings? Make him WR coach with the Hawks, then passing game coordinator, the OC. We need to keep Kk for three more years, then Kupp takes over.
Interesting take. Kupp is a worker and studier, teacher, loves ball, gets to stay near his home base. Who knows? Could work.
Heard Dan Viens on Seahawks Forever say that Kubiak is not likely to leave as a head coach for a few years as he's not been successful as one, past, has talent, but not the HC factor for the NFL, and will have to prove himself more.
Hope he does stay and takes us not just to a SB, but also a win or 2, along with our top notch defense. Who woulda thought a couple of years ago, we'd be where we are today? John's choice of MM is such a big factor!
Yes, if KK sticks around for a few years and Kupp hangs up his cleats, three years under KK coupled with the McVey years and his obvious obsession with work and preparation, not only at WR but QB as well could make him a longer term option for OC.
I hope so.
Speed kills defaces. Cover 2 means it much harder stack the box and define the run. Shaheed will play some snaps Sunday at full speed and LAR will watch!
And we cut no one loose to gain him. Each of our 70 guys know their particular contribution is crucial to fielding us a Championship this year and next.