SSJ nailed it. A little common sense goes a long way. Part of the grading of the offensive line last year was based on both pass and run production. How can you grade either of those when you are ranked 28th in the league at rushing attempts. There's no consistancy with the run and defenses know you are going to pass. Everyone (pundits) seem to think Seattle's offense could actually be worse than last year. Instead of listening to the pundits I decided to go back to an interview with Mark Schlereth on ESPN Seattle 4 months back. I was curious what an all pro guard thinks about Seattle's line and the chance of Seattle's offense actually being better this year. He seemed to think it would be. Both tackles being healthy, drafting Zable to replace one of the worst left guards in the league and a new scheme that's run heavy play action. Greg Cossell seems to think the reason Seattle went after Darnell is that he is a better fit for Kubiak's scheme that Geno would have been.
Schlereth also commented on the fact that so little pad time in training camp and preseason makes it really had to develop young lineman or chemistry. Bradford and Olu had a fair amount of game experience last year. In fact most of the rookies had a least some actual game experience which can only help this year. Most of the new lineman also came out of wide zone offenses, which Seattle didn't use last year. As I mentioned before, like trying to make a round peg fit in a square hole, not playing to your strengths.
One thing none of the NFL Swami's have mentioned is Seattle adding the FB position to their offense. By the way both of those guys contending for that positon also play TE. How might that affect Seattle's running and passing game, their shifts and motion schemes.
It's so commonplace to evaluate on past tendencies instead of current personel and schemes. In 2012 it took the national guys until about week 10 of the season to recognize that Seattle might actually be a pretty good team.
Week one and two will tell us alot about Seattle's new offense, and how effective it might be . If my memory serves me right, last year before an avalanche of injuries in NO, Kubiack's offense lead the league in scoring, over 40 points their first two games.
I leave you with this: "The Seahawks hired Klint Kubiak as their new offensive coordinator in late January. Mike Macdonald says the ability of Kubiak to tailor an offense to the strengths of his players is one of the biggest reasons they made the hire." Feb 9, 2025
I'm still a long ways from making intelligent conversation about OL's in general. I can speak to our OL a bit, but still lack the background information to go very deep. What our coaches have said about Anthony Bradford gives me hope, but while I cannot say we have the best starting five, I get the impression we have one of the deepest groups, especially on the iOL. As long as Cross and Lucas remain healthy, I think we will be OK.
Since you brought up outside zone bring a better fit for Cross and Lucas, potentially leading to better performance, I wanted to throw in that Christian Haynes was considered a top guard in his draft specifically because he was great at outside zone. Bootleg Football called him out as likely to improve and become a major contributor, and that he sucked last year because we never asked him to do the thing he was great at: outside zone.
It strikes me as crazy in retrospect that we weren't an outside zone team last year. The offensive line was built around dudes who had the athletic profile for outside zone (and we drafted a guard who was specifically great at outside zone), we had Kenneth Walker who has the skills and vision to kill at outside zone, we don't install an offense that runs outside zone. There's something to be said for zigging when people expect you to zag, but I don't think it applies to the base offense. That should be the thing you do best, the thing you're built to do.
Grubb probably tried to get us there, as none of them are idiots. My impression was that by the second half, our Big Guys had lost faith in him. He had no experience with that. Again: Advantage to older Coaches.
Among the 'significant' upgrades on the O-line during the off-season that include such things as a new scheme, Abe's good health and a new, high ceiling LG, I would list Anthoney's improved stronger, leaner, faster body without giving up weight as a committment to a breakout season. We'll know more soon enough, but I'm betting he'll surprise us...in a good way.
Hark: I also bet the Seahawks to win the Super Bowl...so...grain of salt right?
“putridity-ness” - I like it. Much like the word that I invented, “patheticism” - i.e. the act of showing to be pathetic. Much like these ‘experts’’ ranking grades is an exercise in patheticism.
dang, "... a fan calling him a bane on my existence." ~ buddy, Lighten up! Your existence should Not depend on any sport's player's production. Good golly.
At age 86, my eyesight is not as good as it used to be but my ability to see through the bullshit is better than ever. I don't read these prognosticators any more due to all the clickbait crap they put out because it is a waste of time and generally pisses me off. One of the things I see, almost daily, is a headline for an article about a suggested trade for some superstar. Then the next day I see a headline that the Hawks are linked to that same superstar. The following day the headline reads The Seahawks are exploring a trade for him. And all of it started with a suggested trade and no information that the team is actually looking to take on his high gauranteed and give up the farm to make such a deal. That's why I read Seaside Joe. I get well researched and reasoned information that always keeps me informed.
Geezers Unite! SSJ does a great job with self-editing. It'll be the Wild West for a bit, as anyone can put up a Site. Who knows? They may have something to say.
As a fellow geezer, albiet much younger at 78, I also have little patience for bullshit. I try to chill with the understanding that "bullshit" is inherent in our species...baked in to the dna. For me Chardonay and/or thc give me a more positive perspective on slack jawed knuckle dragging know it alls. I mean, how can THEY know it all when, as we know, I do right?
Seems like every year I read articles like this one and think, "SJ sure lays out a good argument" and "the hawks sure ought to be better this year" only to witness how misplaced my hopes were come week 3 or 4. I do appreciate the thought and effort you put into these articles though SJ. One of these years maybe my hopes won't be dashed against the rocks of the proverbial rocky shoreline that is NFL competition. Onward!
The obvious flaw in this article is that the OL plays as one unit, rather than five individuals. Yes, the Seahawks can have five better players than the Cards and have significantly worse results. Still, I’m hugely optimistic…
The good news about having better players is that the ceiling is higher. Last year, the coaching staff was light on NFL experience and wasn’t able to get the OL to gel. Rather than be decisive and building communication, they dithered with the starting lineup. I have to wonder if Connor Williams didn’t retire in part because he was frustrated with the coaching. Now, we have a coaching staff with years of successful NFL experience that has a clear vision for the OL and that prioritizes the run game. I expect that the players will be enthusiastic to play for these coaches, compared to the staff (and results) from 2024.
That the staff churned (from inexperienced and unsuccessful to experienced and proven), while the players mostly didn’t, is the ideal situation. Of course Zabel is new - and a first rounder. The center and right guard might or might not have started in 2024, but I expect that they’ve had snaps together, and have certainly seen film of each other.
The narrative should be that the Seahawks OL WAS bad in 2024. And that they are likely to be the most improved in 2025.
While we’re on the subject of how ignorant (or stupid) these national “experts” are, recently I saw two separate offseason grades for NFL teams, and the Seahawks were near the bottom of the team rankings. I checked the other teams in the NFC West, and even the 49ers were much higher than the Hawks. In reading why the 49ers had a very good offseason, they mention the hire of Robert Saleh to coach the defense. When you look at the Seahawks, that same person makes no mention of their offseason coaching change on offense. While I can believe Saleh will have a positive impact on the 49ers defense, I can’t believe going from a college OC running a college offense to a proven NFL OC with an NFL offensive scheme isn’t a far bigger improvement. It’s truly sad how incompetent these experts are. In reality they are just personalities selling entertainment vs quality information. No one bothers to hold them accountable for spewing nonsense.
I’m not saying the coaching changes made by SF aren’t an improvement. I am saying the change of the entire offensive coaching staff from Grubb et al, to Klint Kubiak et al, is a far greater change witch will likely result in a significantly greater improvement and which went unmentioned by the “expert” who rated the Seahawks offseason moves as poor and the 49ers moves as significantly better.
Journalism is rapidly evolving is a more accurate statement in my opinion. Though your use of the qualifier "for the most part" gives your statement a fair amount of mystery. Your definition of Journalism may also skew results, LOL.
True journalism use to be something you went to college to study. Then you cut your teeth on a small time publication and worked your way up. But at ALL levels there was journalistic integrity. Before you published a claim, you required two separate independent confirmations of the claim. Now, any rumor will do if it gets clicks or views. Let’s not let the truth get in the way.
It'll all go out the window anyway if we beat the 9'ers in week 1. Doesn't controlling the game for 4 quarters and beating them by double-digits sound nice?
Truth! Ornithologist are always sayin' stuff like that. Don't call them "Seahawks" fans, or you'll likely be told: "You won't hear a chirp or warble of praise from me about that wretched O-line until you change your name to the Osprey!"
More evidence that rankings and lists are mostly click bait bullshit. The only thing that matters is what actually happens on the field, and who wins and loses. Go Hawks!
Great article. Sounds like it could be a market opportunity.
I think there is a couple issues with football ranking type articles.
1) They start their analysis with what happened the prior year. When really they should start their analysis from a baseline of average. In other words, tell the intern that wrote the rankings to "prove a team is better or worse than average" instead of telling the intern to "prove to me a team that was 30th ranked last year won't be 30th this year".
Using every team starting point at average, it is pretty easy to say that most teams are probably pretty similar in O-line talent and the disparity is probably not that much which leads to
2) Rankings on 1-32 are good for convos and getting people worked up but really rankings should be in tiers. This is because you could have a situation like the difference between the 4th ranked O-line and the 5th is similar to the 16th and the 30th. 16 to 30 ranked line sounds like a big difference but in reality these all might be about the same.
Where I differ with the Hawks O-line is that I do not expect Zabel to be an upgrade over Laken in year 1, the depth at tackle looks a bit ominous (but I really like Cross and Lucas), and there is a lot of betting on the come. Zabel/Sundell/Bradford or whoever starts could become good but at this point we don't know yet.
But I would rather have the Hawks O-line with all those unknowns that are upsides over the Cardinals.
So, overall, at this point in time the Hawks Oline to me is about average maybe a shade below but has upside potential to be better but also has depth concerns at tackle.
Haha yeah ... Probably a little too early to be comparing our first-round pick to Laken.
Moreso saying my expectations are pretty low for year1 with Zabel just because it is a really hard jump for anyone. However, I am hopeful he can make it work similar to Cross/Lucas first year (although they hit the rookie wall in the second half).
I trust Kubiak will adjust if it appears one of the guys is having trouble, for any reason. We now have bruising TEs and FBs available to drop some hammers where needed. Toss in WRs like Bobo. Our 12s will have us again owning home field advantage. (BTW, our stadium was specifically engineered to amplify cheering back onto the field. Parabolics. Trouble is, it goes both ways)
Both Bobo and Kupp are fearsome blockers, in addition to us now having a real fullback in Ouzts. That's not OL strength but it is blocking strength, maybe picking up a LB or a box safety. Which will make the OL's job easier. I'm real excited to see our run game now
As one who is content to be known here as a "know-nothing" (and not in the Socratic model) about pro football, I rejoiced at SJ's opening paragraph. I have also admitted here that I am an OL fetishist and worrier. Along with the RB room, nothing better defines the identity we all want for the Hawks (Smashmouth Maulers, right?).
I cautiously agree with SJ that the offensive line will be "better" than last year or recent priors, low bar as that may be. Hopefully great new coaching can quickly conjure up unit cohesion, the secret sauce of any great unit (I know that much.) The BBQ analogue: the OL looks like great + promising ingredients, minus any proven recipe.
Just a few personal feelings about the athletes: 1) I assume that Bradford is still 330 lbs./150 kg, but likely holding a lot of wounded pride + a bunch of trench experience. If he's carrying a shoulder chip, it should look like Cal Raleigh's torpedo bat and could get similar results. 2) Will someone design a right knee support for Abe Lucas that is very protective but doesn't really slow him down? I'd like that for him! 3) I hope that Zabel, the farm boy rookie from N. Dakota, is not cruelly humbled as so many before him have been in their first season. 4) I hope Kubiak's two TE sets are 500 lbs. better than Grubb's.
I saw an interview with Abe the other day. He's really into the powerlifting now, and is lifting more than he ever has. Said he was healthy, feeling good, and looking forward to the new philosophy on offense. Whatever was going on with his knee, hopefully it's behind him.
SSJ nailed it. A little common sense goes a long way. Part of the grading of the offensive line last year was based on both pass and run production. How can you grade either of those when you are ranked 28th in the league at rushing attempts. There's no consistancy with the run and defenses know you are going to pass. Everyone (pundits) seem to think Seattle's offense could actually be worse than last year. Instead of listening to the pundits I decided to go back to an interview with Mark Schlereth on ESPN Seattle 4 months back. I was curious what an all pro guard thinks about Seattle's line and the chance of Seattle's offense actually being better this year. He seemed to think it would be. Both tackles being healthy, drafting Zable to replace one of the worst left guards in the league and a new scheme that's run heavy play action. Greg Cossell seems to think the reason Seattle went after Darnell is that he is a better fit for Kubiak's scheme that Geno would have been.
Schlereth also commented on the fact that so little pad time in training camp and preseason makes it really had to develop young lineman or chemistry. Bradford and Olu had a fair amount of game experience last year. In fact most of the rookies had a least some actual game experience which can only help this year. Most of the new lineman also came out of wide zone offenses, which Seattle didn't use last year. As I mentioned before, like trying to make a round peg fit in a square hole, not playing to your strengths.
One thing none of the NFL Swami's have mentioned is Seattle adding the FB position to their offense. By the way both of those guys contending for that positon also play TE. How might that affect Seattle's running and passing game, their shifts and motion schemes.
It's so commonplace to evaluate on past tendencies instead of current personel and schemes. In 2012 it took the national guys until about week 10 of the season to recognize that Seattle might actually be a pretty good team.
Week one and two will tell us alot about Seattle's new offense, and how effective it might be . If my memory serves me right, last year before an avalanche of injuries in NO, Kubiack's offense lead the league in scoring, over 40 points their first two games.
I leave you with this: "The Seahawks hired Klint Kubiak as their new offensive coordinator in late January. Mike Macdonald says the ability of Kubiak to tailor an offense to the strengths of his players is one of the biggest reasons they made the hire." Feb 9, 2025
I'm still a long ways from making intelligent conversation about OL's in general. I can speak to our OL a bit, but still lack the background information to go very deep. What our coaches have said about Anthony Bradford gives me hope, but while I cannot say we have the best starting five, I get the impression we have one of the deepest groups, especially on the iOL. As long as Cross and Lucas remain healthy, I think we will be OK.
Since you brought up outside zone bring a better fit for Cross and Lucas, potentially leading to better performance, I wanted to throw in that Christian Haynes was considered a top guard in his draft specifically because he was great at outside zone. Bootleg Football called him out as likely to improve and become a major contributor, and that he sucked last year because we never asked him to do the thing he was great at: outside zone.
It strikes me as crazy in retrospect that we weren't an outside zone team last year. The offensive line was built around dudes who had the athletic profile for outside zone (and we drafted a guard who was specifically great at outside zone), we had Kenneth Walker who has the skills and vision to kill at outside zone, we don't install an offense that runs outside zone. There's something to be said for zigging when people expect you to zag, but I don't think it applies to the base offense. That should be the thing you do best, the thing you're built to do.
Grubb probably tried to get us there, as none of them are idiots. My impression was that by the second half, our Big Guys had lost faith in him. He had no experience with that. Again: Advantage to older Coaches.
Jimmys and Joes, not Xs and Os, right?
Among the 'significant' upgrades on the O-line during the off-season that include such things as a new scheme, Abe's good health and a new, high ceiling LG, I would list Anthoney's improved stronger, leaner, faster body without giving up weight as a committment to a breakout season. We'll know more soon enough, but I'm betting he'll surprise us...in a good way.
Hark: I also bet the Seahawks to win the Super Bowl...so...grain of salt right?
Offensive line rankings brought to you by vibes and reputation
“putridity-ness” - I like it. Much like the word that I invented, “patheticism” - i.e. the act of showing to be pathetic. Much like these ‘experts’’ ranking grades is an exercise in patheticism.
dang, "... a fan calling him a bane on my existence." ~ buddy, Lighten up! Your existence should Not depend on any sport's player's production. Good golly.
In the end, it’s just a game.
At age 86, my eyesight is not as good as it used to be but my ability to see through the bullshit is better than ever. I don't read these prognosticators any more due to all the clickbait crap they put out because it is a waste of time and generally pisses me off. One of the things I see, almost daily, is a headline for an article about a suggested trade for some superstar. Then the next day I see a headline that the Hawks are linked to that same superstar. The following day the headline reads The Seahawks are exploring a trade for him. And all of it started with a suggested trade and no information that the team is actually looking to take on his high gauranteed and give up the farm to make such a deal. That's why I read Seaside Joe. I get well researched and reasoned information that always keeps me informed.
Geezers Unite! SSJ does a great job with self-editing. It'll be the Wild West for a bit, as anyone can put up a Site. Who knows? They may have something to say.
As a fellow geezer, albiet much younger at 78, I also have little patience for bullshit. I try to chill with the understanding that "bullshit" is inherent in our species...baked in to the dna. For me Chardonay and/or thc give me a more positive perspective on slack jawed knuckle dragging know it alls. I mean, how can THEY know it all when, as we know, I do right?
Stay Young, Sir Charlie Gage.
Seems like every year I read articles like this one and think, "SJ sure lays out a good argument" and "the hawks sure ought to be better this year" only to witness how misplaced my hopes were come week 3 or 4. I do appreciate the thought and effort you put into these articles though SJ. One of these years maybe my hopes won't be dashed against the rocks of the proverbial rocky shoreline that is NFL competition. Onward!
The obvious flaw in this article is that the OL plays as one unit, rather than five individuals. Yes, the Seahawks can have five better players than the Cards and have significantly worse results. Still, I’m hugely optimistic…
The good news about having better players is that the ceiling is higher. Last year, the coaching staff was light on NFL experience and wasn’t able to get the OL to gel. Rather than be decisive and building communication, they dithered with the starting lineup. I have to wonder if Connor Williams didn’t retire in part because he was frustrated with the coaching. Now, we have a coaching staff with years of successful NFL experience that has a clear vision for the OL and that prioritizes the run game. I expect that the players will be enthusiastic to play for these coaches, compared to the staff (and results) from 2024.
That the staff churned (from inexperienced and unsuccessful to experienced and proven), while the players mostly didn’t, is the ideal situation. Of course Zabel is new - and a first rounder. The center and right guard might or might not have started in 2024, but I expect that they’ve had snaps together, and have certainly seen film of each other.
The narrative should be that the Seahawks OL WAS bad in 2024. And that they are likely to be the most improved in 2025.
While we’re on the subject of how ignorant (or stupid) these national “experts” are, recently I saw two separate offseason grades for NFL teams, and the Seahawks were near the bottom of the team rankings. I checked the other teams in the NFC West, and even the 49ers were much higher than the Hawks. In reading why the 49ers had a very good offseason, they mention the hire of Robert Saleh to coach the defense. When you look at the Seahawks, that same person makes no mention of their offseason coaching change on offense. While I can believe Saleh will have a positive impact on the 49ers defense, I can’t believe going from a college OC running a college offense to a proven NFL OC with an NFL offensive scheme isn’t a far bigger improvement. It’s truly sad how incompetent these experts are. In reality they are just personalities selling entertainment vs quality information. No one bothers to hold them accountable for spewing nonsense.
SF also hired Gus Bradley as assitant head coach and my guess is defensive consultant.
I’m not saying the coaching changes made by SF aren’t an improvement. I am saying the change of the entire offensive coaching staff from Grubb et al, to Klint Kubiak et al, is a far greater change witch will likely result in a significantly greater improvement and which went unmentioned by the “expert” who rated the Seahawks offseason moves as poor and the 49ers moves as significantly better.
What happened to Editors editing? Lots of 'feeding your bias' going on. Standards are there for very good reasons.
journalism is dead for the most part
Journalism is rapidly evolving is a more accurate statement in my opinion. Though your use of the qualifier "for the most part" gives your statement a fair amount of mystery. Your definition of Journalism may also skew results, LOL.
True journalism use to be something you went to college to study. Then you cut your teeth on a small time publication and worked your way up. But at ALL levels there was journalistic integrity. Before you published a claim, you required two separate independent confirmations of the claim. Now, any rumor will do if it gets clicks or views. Let’s not let the truth get in the way.
It'll all go out the window anyway if we beat the 9'ers in week 1. Doesn't controlling the game for 4 quarters and beating them by double-digits sound nice?
Absolutely. I just replied to someone else saying we’ll know where we stand right after that 49er game.
Truth! Ornithologist are always sayin' stuff like that. Don't call them "Seahawks" fans, or you'll likely be told: "You won't hear a chirp or warble of praise from me about that wretched O-line until you change your name to the Osprey!"
More evidence that rankings and lists are mostly click bait bullshit. The only thing that matters is what actually happens on the field, and who wins and loses. Go Hawks!
Would any of us trade the Hawks OL for the Cards OL? Not me, and likely not many of you.
No.
Not even sure the Cards are better today, and I am pretty sure the Hawks have a higher ceiling and higher potential upside.
I wonder how many teams have a better potential line in 3 years (assuming teams retain free agents)?
Great article. Sounds like it could be a market opportunity.
I think there is a couple issues with football ranking type articles.
1) They start their analysis with what happened the prior year. When really they should start their analysis from a baseline of average. In other words, tell the intern that wrote the rankings to "prove a team is better or worse than average" instead of telling the intern to "prove to me a team that was 30th ranked last year won't be 30th this year".
Using every team starting point at average, it is pretty easy to say that most teams are probably pretty similar in O-line talent and the disparity is probably not that much which leads to
2) Rankings on 1-32 are good for convos and getting people worked up but really rankings should be in tiers. This is because you could have a situation like the difference between the 4th ranked O-line and the 5th is similar to the 16th and the 30th. 16 to 30 ranked line sounds like a big difference but in reality these all might be about the same.
Where I differ with the Hawks O-line is that I do not expect Zabel to be an upgrade over Laken in year 1, the depth at tackle looks a bit ominous (but I really like Cross and Lucas), and there is a lot of betting on the come. Zabel/Sundell/Bradford or whoever starts could become good but at this point we don't know yet.
But I would rather have the Hawks O-line with all those unknowns that are upsides over the Cardinals.
So, overall, at this point in time the Hawks Oline to me is about average maybe a shade below but has upside potential to be better but also has depth concerns at tackle.
Go Hawks
Agree with everything you said except Laken, who was doing the best imitation of a revolving door I've seen in a long time.
Haha yeah ... Probably a little too early to be comparing our first-round pick to Laken.
Moreso saying my expectations are pretty low for year1 with Zabel just because it is a really hard jump for anyone. However, I am hopeful he can make it work similar to Cross/Lucas first year (although they hit the rookie wall in the second half).
I trust Kubiak will adjust if it appears one of the guys is having trouble, for any reason. We now have bruising TEs and FBs available to drop some hammers where needed. Toss in WRs like Bobo. Our 12s will have us again owning home field advantage. (BTW, our stadium was specifically engineered to amplify cheering back onto the field. Parabolics. Trouble is, it goes both ways)
Both Bobo and Kupp are fearsome blockers, in addition to us now having a real fullback in Ouzts. That's not OL strength but it is blocking strength, maybe picking up a LB or a box safety. Which will make the OL's job easier. I'm real excited to see our run game now
I was unaware of Kupp's blocking abilities. Thnx. Just keeps getting better.
As one who is content to be known here as a "know-nothing" (and not in the Socratic model) about pro football, I rejoiced at SJ's opening paragraph. I have also admitted here that I am an OL fetishist and worrier. Along with the RB room, nothing better defines the identity we all want for the Hawks (Smashmouth Maulers, right?).
I cautiously agree with SJ that the offensive line will be "better" than last year or recent priors, low bar as that may be. Hopefully great new coaching can quickly conjure up unit cohesion, the secret sauce of any great unit (I know that much.) The BBQ analogue: the OL looks like great + promising ingredients, minus any proven recipe.
Just a few personal feelings about the athletes: 1) I assume that Bradford is still 330 lbs./150 kg, but likely holding a lot of wounded pride + a bunch of trench experience. If he's carrying a shoulder chip, it should look like Cal Raleigh's torpedo bat and could get similar results. 2) Will someone design a right knee support for Abe Lucas that is very protective but doesn't really slow him down? I'd like that for him! 3) I hope that Zabel, the farm boy rookie from N. Dakota, is not cruelly humbled as so many before him have been in their first season. 4) I hope Kubiak's two TE sets are 500 lbs. better than Grubb's.
You've just wasted one minute reading the above.
I saw an interview with Abe the other day. He's really into the powerlifting now, and is lifting more than he ever has. Said he was healthy, feeling good, and looking forward to the new philosophy on offense. Whatever was going on with his knee, hopefully it's behind him.
3 Thumbs Up: >>...great new coaching can quickly conjure up unit cohesion, the secret sauce of any great unit<<
Three thumbs? You must be an interesting guy to shake hands with.