I'm late to this commentary, but thank you for your perspective, Kenneth. Spoken like a man who has meditated every day for even longer than he's written Seaside Joe. Time for me to re-assess Ben Baldwin, then, since I'm among those who dislike his arrogant "branding." Certainly his stance isn't a reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater--I would like to be open to different ways to analyze the game.
I think it's also the case that Twitter tends to make people into caricatures of themselves. Those who build up some kind of following often wind up embracing exaggeration and snark as regular tools. They're no longer who they were.
The good news is that we can change for the better, and get better at our craft, even as we can change for the worse and get worse. I would say that your writing and analysis, Ken, have grown tremendously since you left Field Gulls to do SB Nation and now with Seaside Joe.
Every human being (well animals too) react to coaching, management, or herding differently. As a former athlete, I found I responded best to a Pete Carroll type far better than the intimidator types got from me. He (and his coaches) take the time to learn how to best tap into an athlete's gifts.
Moving Red Bryant outside was the first example I saw of his Brilliance, leading to many more. Getting a Team to believe in itself is not simple science - it is an art and he is an artist. Russell Wilson's belief in self is commendable as he is unbelievable at shutting out the noise around him and focusing on his prize. Eventually he felt that the prize is more readily attained elsewhere - that was his doing - not Pete's.
Coach Carroll's tremendous positivity can lead to slower reaction to negative trends. Yet it is clear we are in the middle of a focused re-tooling of this franchise. Not unlike when he decided to make a difference in the pass rush one off-season. Adding Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, and Bruce Irvin to Red and Chris Clemons that year sure helped the LOB be memorable.
For everyone who felt the old man should go instead of #3, I can only give you 'The Dude' Lebowski's answer..."Well - like - that's your opinion - man..."
10+-win seasons under all other coaches combined: 4
Post-season appearances under Pete Carroll: 9
Post-season appearances under all other coaches combined: 10
Post-season wins under Pete Carroll: 10
Post-season wins under all other coaches combined: 5
Ben Baldwin once argued to fire Carroll because of his use of timeouts and fourth-down calls. (I kid you not.) His position was that there were plenty of coaches-in-waiting out there (i.e., the road to Jim Mora). My comment was that anyone who would say this had never been in or had to hire a leadership position. Mike Dugar was gentler and more persuasive: He pointed out that Pete is very good at the hard parts of coaching a team—such as building and maintaining a successful culture—and that this was more important than what are minor tactical matters.
Kind of like the ‘ I hate Jerry DiPoto’ gang that can’t stand that the rebuild is actually working. Some of the ‘Pete is holding Russ back’ crew have to be dying inside 😆
Thank you for a great column. I love Pete Carroll and his coaching philosophy. He’s a principle reason I’m such a rabid fan. O icy is perfect, but he has demonstrated the power of his philosophy and you have encapsulated a valid point, “ There is something to be learned from everybody if you are open and observant enough. Namaste.
This is the season that's pulling back the veil on Pete Carroll's coaching strengths as a head coach. I've never been a Carroll hater. In recent years, I've been wondering if was running out of gas. I no longer think so.
I've been very bearish on this team. Thought they'd win 2 to 5 games in 2022. They've been way better than I expected. Still don't see them making the playoffs but they deserve a lot of credit. Our rookies. Gino. Our excellent receivers. And our coaches.
Pete's greatest gift is making players believe. These guys are doing this for each other. Lets not throw money away by betting against them...clearly, their belief is catching - it is rubbing off on me...I will be happy with the 8-9/9-8-ish season I was predicting in May. Now I am hopeful or 9-10 wins for our Seahawks and a Bronco season including 10 losses would ROCK!
Yes, I'm with you. I posted more recently in another thread that I'm finally on board. This was their first win against a quality opponent on the road and it was impressive. Not a great opponent but it's enough for me to suspend my skepticism.
Pete Carrol is by far the best HC the Hawks have ever had... period..end of story!
Most wins. Most Super Bowls. Most Pro Bowl players.
I think the hatred comes from his days at USC and the interception that lost the 2nd Super Bowl even though there's no guarantee that Beast Mode would have scored . In that case the anti Pete crowd would have complained that they should have passed because the Pat's D was looking for the run.
So far he was right about Geno and trading Russ. ( it's better to trade a player a year early than year late)
The haul the Hawks got for Wilson was amazing plus they didn't have to give Wilson 50 million per season ,a contract that would have put a huge dent in the payroll.
Thanks for pointing out that there’s no guarantee that Beast would have scored. Plus, once Belichek decided not to call TO, either second or third was going to be a pass if Carroll wanted to be able to use all of his plays.
I have never used nor scrolled through Twitter. I don't HATE Twitter I have just never gotten envolved. Also i just got my hip replaced yesterday. I am home now and this has stirred a lot to think about. There is one point I do agree with Ben Baldwin and that is DJ Reed. Pete worked his DB magic on Reed and turned him into an above average cornerback, on the right side. Reed wanted to comeback to Seattle, but they gave him such a low ball offer that he would not deal with them ever. I can't understand why Pete took this approach.
On the positive side of Pete Kenneth referenced some good points i say some, because you could go on for a long time. As I have said here many times, I have never wanted Pete fired. I played for 2 coaches in my life that I would do almost anything for them, to win. I believe Pete is a guy like that.
Finally and most importantly look at the position Seattle is in, in the NFC West. I think the Niners were thinking correctly about McCaffery, the price was to high. To them, they are all in this year as they now have almost no picks in upcoming drafts. With their quarterback situation it's very understandable. The Rams are in a similar position and won a Super Bowl last year, but don't have a chance at a good draft next March. John and Pete and my friend Clive saw that Russell Wilson had lost a lot of his mobility. That mobility is what made him so much fun to watch, and he was dangerous. Last November my great friend Clive tentatively brought up Russell's play, Clive was a bit worried it might put my nose out of joint. On the contrary I thought the same. Pete and John spent hours times 100 figuring the future and they sure look good now. We have a team that competes with a bunch of players that are easy to get behind. Next year we have a chance to have a draft like this year's and bring in McCaw in round two or three. We have enormous cap space. We will be a good team meaning for sure playoff team, and by 2024, ascending to a fighers chance at the big prize. I would play for positive Pete !!!
I counter to this belief - The secret weapon in the NFL is rookie contracts for the highest paid position groups. QB's, LT's, WRs, and CBs have priced themselves out of a team's ability to field all second contract veteran's. Of those six, a team can only carry so many beyond. Reid's cost was further made impossible by the team's commitment to our Safeties. I am certain DJ was valued. They simply only offered what they could afford based upon the cap. We now have two very affordable CB's so this time it looks to have worked out.
First, Ben Baldwin. In the Twitterverse you need a take that is a bit controversial so that people want to argue with you--I get it. But I find his comments offer more heat than light and I rarely read them anymore. The stats guys (of whom Ba;ldwin is the flag bearer) want to treat football like baseball, and football just isn't that. The stats guys all say the same thing: pass, go for it on 4th down because the model says so, WR>RB etc. etc. Underneath it is a presumption that there is "one best way" to win in the NFL and anything else is on a scale between unenlightened and just plain dumb (and a source for ridicule).
I don't like engaging in conversations about Pete Carroll with folks who have not read "Win Forever". It isn't a hard book to read, and it sets out in full Pete's philosophy around football. He wrote it before the end of his first year with the Seahawks, and he hasn't changed much in his approach. What I appreciate most about Pete is that he HAS a point of view, a philosophy about football, and he is very consistent about how it is applied. We saw what he and John did to build the first SB version of the Seahawks. People say Pete/John got 'lucky' in the drafts of 2011 and 2012 but they were looking for a type, and they found it. The job Pete/John did building the team from the dregs available when they were hired was remarkable.
In Win Forever Pete sets out as his model Marv Levy, coach of the Bills team that made the SB four straight years. For Pete the point is to be able to compete at the highest level--the championship game itself is a bit of a crapshoot. Getting to and staying at the pinnacle of the NFL is a great accomplishment.
In the salary cap era it is difficult to keep the foundation of a championship team together. The 2012=2015 run was pretty darn good! In fact the only real criticism of Pete that I have is that he should have made the deal to trade Russ a year earlier than he did. But there is no question the team today is far superior to the 2021 version, and its future is brighter.
What Pete refers to as a "balanced offense" is far more run-heavy than the analytic types like Baldwin like. Too bad. Pete's philosophy of winning the turnover battle, have a strong run game that allows the team to control the pace of play and make sure the D is fresh, and make enough explosive plays to get TDs/FGs while preventing them on D... has been shown to be one way of winning. It's sometimes ugly but it gets the job done.
What we get to watch now as fans, is the process of Pete/John creating another SB-competitive team. They are one more great draft away from doing it with the draft capital they have now. Thiis team is just so much fun to watch from that perspective!
I know there will be a better place to make this survivor comment but I'm old, I'd forget.
Van Dyke needs to return to school next year. He grabbed his right, throwing shoulder after a sack and didn't return so he might get a medical retirement from QB Survivor.
DJ Uiagalelei's draft stock took a major hit after he was benched and his replacement brought Clemson back against Duke.
"Expect the unexpected"!
We may need an injury substitution and Bo Nix looks like he should be in the competition. 22/28, 5 tds, 0 ints, 51 rds rushing but most of all, he looks like the game's most impactful player against UCLA.
Because my focus is to create as many losses as possible for Denver, I feel it is better to have coach Nathan Hackett to truly Blow a major decision...nothing hurts a team more than Not believing in its coach.
No I hope he plays OK but loses, for our draft. It is only now that the football world see's that Russ can't see the open men in the middle of the field. Kyler Murray suffers the sameway. I couldn't help but notice Seattle didn't full out attack Kyler but they muddied the A and B gap on his right side his throwing arm. This slowed his throwing and allowed us to get 6 sacs. He did run for 100 yards but that resulted in very little. What a great game plan, it would be nice to see a new scheme to slow down the Chargers
I don't hate Ben Baldwin, I rarely even think about Ben Baldwin. I chose to comment about him because I was in one of those moods, the joke presented itself and I thought it was funny (although it probably wasn't). :-)
But I do luv me some Kenny. Your arguments are well thought out and crafted and that puts you miles ahead of the Baldwins and Barnwells of the world.
I love this article but I'm sure you'd be just as happy if I hated it. What you can't afford is "meh".
Whether Pete's results have been good or bad (they've been good which makes this easier) the thing I enjoy about Pete is his love for the game and his positive attitude. Belichick is a great coach, but for me, his sideline grinch act detracts from the experince. Pete seems to embrace your philosophy of non-hate. Several players who the Hawks have cut have expressed anger and taken jabs at Pete including Thomas' famous finger. Pete defends them. The narrative I find funniest is that football has passed Pete by because he insists on running the ball. The unbaised fact is that Pete has been very adaptable throughout his career. He changed his coaching style before going to USC. Very few coaches can say they changed the game but Pete's 2012 defense did just that. Yet, here we are with a new defense and a new-fangled McVey offense that runs the ball. Damn, that old man is stubborn.
I'm late to this commentary, but thank you for your perspective, Kenneth. Spoken like a man who has meditated every day for even longer than he's written Seaside Joe. Time for me to re-assess Ben Baldwin, then, since I'm among those who dislike his arrogant "branding." Certainly his stance isn't a reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater--I would like to be open to different ways to analyze the game.
I think it's also the case that Twitter tends to make people into caricatures of themselves. Those who build up some kind of following often wind up embracing exaggeration and snark as regular tools. They're no longer who they were.
The good news is that we can change for the better, and get better at our craft, even as we can change for the worse and get worse. I would say that your writing and analysis, Ken, have grown tremendously since you left Field Gulls to do SB Nation and now with Seaside Joe.
The 'Secret Sauce' regarding Coaching...
Every human being (well animals too) react to coaching, management, or herding differently. As a former athlete, I found I responded best to a Pete Carroll type far better than the intimidator types got from me. He (and his coaches) take the time to learn how to best tap into an athlete's gifts.
Moving Red Bryant outside was the first example I saw of his Brilliance, leading to many more. Getting a Team to believe in itself is not simple science - it is an art and he is an artist. Russell Wilson's belief in self is commendable as he is unbelievable at shutting out the noise around him and focusing on his prize. Eventually he felt that the prize is more readily attained elsewhere - that was his doing - not Pete's.
Russ' tremendous gift also has consequences. Believing he can do it all, which leads to extraordinary outcomes at times also leads to a much higher sack rate than his pressure rate would figure - Great article on this at: ( https://www.fieldgulls.com/2022/10/23/23418788/sacks-are-a-quarterback-stat-seattle-seahawks-denver-broncos-pressure-sack-rate ), which proves he is still at it.
Coach Carroll's tremendous positivity can lead to slower reaction to negative trends. Yet it is clear we are in the middle of a focused re-tooling of this franchise. Not unlike when he decided to make a difference in the pass rush one off-season. Adding Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, and Bruce Irvin to Red and Chris Clemons that year sure helped the LOB be memorable.
For everyone who felt the old man should go instead of #3, I can only give you 'The Dude' Lebowski's answer..."Well - like - that's your opinion - man..."
10+-win seasons under Pete Carroll: 8
10+-win seasons under all other coaches combined: 4
Post-season appearances under Pete Carroll: 9
Post-season appearances under all other coaches combined: 10
Post-season wins under Pete Carroll: 10
Post-season wins under all other coaches combined: 5
Ben Baldwin once argued to fire Carroll because of his use of timeouts and fourth-down calls. (I kid you not.) His position was that there were plenty of coaches-in-waiting out there (i.e., the road to Jim Mora). My comment was that anyone who would say this had never been in or had to hire a leadership position. Mike Dugar was gentler and more persuasive: He pointed out that Pete is very good at the hard parts of coaching a team—such as building and maintaining a successful culture—and that this was more important than what are minor tactical matters.
I’m in no hurry to move on from Pete.
Kind of like the ‘ I hate Jerry DiPoto’ gang that can’t stand that the rebuild is actually working. Some of the ‘Pete is holding Russ back’ crew have to be dying inside 😆
Thank you for a great column. I love Pete Carroll and his coaching philosophy. He’s a principle reason I’m such a rabid fan. O icy is perfect, but he has demonstrated the power of his philosophy and you have encapsulated a valid point, “ There is something to be learned from everybody if you are open and observant enough. Namaste.
Thank you!
This is the season that's pulling back the veil on Pete Carroll's coaching strengths as a head coach. I've never been a Carroll hater. In recent years, I've been wondering if was running out of gas. I no longer think so.
I've been very bearish on this team. Thought they'd win 2 to 5 games in 2022. They've been way better than I expected. Still don't see them making the playoffs but they deserve a lot of credit. Our rookies. Gino. Our excellent receivers. And our coaches.
Pete's greatest gift is making players believe. These guys are doing this for each other. Lets not throw money away by betting against them...clearly, their belief is catching - it is rubbing off on me...I will be happy with the 8-9/9-8-ish season I was predicting in May. Now I am hopeful or 9-10 wins for our Seahawks and a Bronco season including 10 losses would ROCK!
Yes, I'm with you. I posted more recently in another thread that I'm finally on board. This was their first win against a quality opponent on the road and it was impressive. Not a great opponent but it's enough for me to suspend my skepticism.
Bullish?
Come again.
Pete caught my attention when he brought in Lindell White and sent him away a few days later.
I knew he had a high player ethic that was to be maintained to be successful.
This off season when he came out with good philosophy, admitted his defensive arrogance, and hired new staff I was interested.
My only rub was Smith SD his off season actions he's never come clean on.
But Carroll knows football, and the national narrative means nothing to him. It's the guys in the locker room playing for each other.
Listen too Smith at pressers and you'll hear exactly the 22/53 man philosophy Pete wants.
This team with Adams and Penny would be very dangerous. That's the team Pete built for this run.
And he's still got them on track.
Pete Carrol is by far the best HC the Hawks have ever had... period..end of story!
Most wins. Most Super Bowls. Most Pro Bowl players.
I think the hatred comes from his days at USC and the interception that lost the 2nd Super Bowl even though there's no guarantee that Beast Mode would have scored . In that case the anti Pete crowd would have complained that they should have passed because the Pat's D was looking for the run.
So far he was right about Geno and trading Russ. ( it's better to trade a player a year early than year late)
The haul the Hawks got for Wilson was amazing plus they didn't have to give Wilson 50 million per season ,a contract that would have put a huge dent in the payroll.
Walker and Woolen are future pro bowlers.
The haters are gonna hate. Who really cares.
Thanks for pointing out that there’s no guarantee that Beast would have scored. Plus, once Belichek decided not to call TO, either second or third was going to be a pass if Carroll wanted to be able to use all of his plays.
I have never used nor scrolled through Twitter. I don't HATE Twitter I have just never gotten envolved. Also i just got my hip replaced yesterday. I am home now and this has stirred a lot to think about. There is one point I do agree with Ben Baldwin and that is DJ Reed. Pete worked his DB magic on Reed and turned him into an above average cornerback, on the right side. Reed wanted to comeback to Seattle, but they gave him such a low ball offer that he would not deal with them ever. I can't understand why Pete took this approach.
On the positive side of Pete Kenneth referenced some good points i say some, because you could go on for a long time. As I have said here many times, I have never wanted Pete fired. I played for 2 coaches in my life that I would do almost anything for them, to win. I believe Pete is a guy like that.
Finally and most importantly look at the position Seattle is in, in the NFC West. I think the Niners were thinking correctly about McCaffery, the price was to high. To them, they are all in this year as they now have almost no picks in upcoming drafts. With their quarterback situation it's very understandable. The Rams are in a similar position and won a Super Bowl last year, but don't have a chance at a good draft next March. John and Pete and my friend Clive saw that Russell Wilson had lost a lot of his mobility. That mobility is what made him so much fun to watch, and he was dangerous. Last November my great friend Clive tentatively brought up Russell's play, Clive was a bit worried it might put my nose out of joint. On the contrary I thought the same. Pete and John spent hours times 100 figuring the future and they sure look good now. We have a team that competes with a bunch of players that are easy to get behind. Next year we have a chance to have a draft like this year's and bring in McCaw in round two or three. We have enormous cap space. We will be a good team meaning for sure playoff team, and by 2024, ascending to a fighers chance at the big prize. I would play for positive Pete !!!
well thought reply...
I counter to this belief - The secret weapon in the NFL is rookie contracts for the highest paid position groups. QB's, LT's, WRs, and CBs have priced themselves out of a team's ability to field all second contract veteran's. Of those six, a team can only carry so many beyond. Reid's cost was further made impossible by the team's commitment to our Safeties. I am certain DJ was valued. They simply only offered what they could afford based upon the cap. We now have two very affordable CB's so this time it looks to have worked out.
Good luck with that hip!
Ok, this is a topic near and dear to my heart.
First, Ben Baldwin. In the Twitterverse you need a take that is a bit controversial so that people want to argue with you--I get it. But I find his comments offer more heat than light and I rarely read them anymore. The stats guys (of whom Ba;ldwin is the flag bearer) want to treat football like baseball, and football just isn't that. The stats guys all say the same thing: pass, go for it on 4th down because the model says so, WR>RB etc. etc. Underneath it is a presumption that there is "one best way" to win in the NFL and anything else is on a scale between unenlightened and just plain dumb (and a source for ridicule).
I don't like engaging in conversations about Pete Carroll with folks who have not read "Win Forever". It isn't a hard book to read, and it sets out in full Pete's philosophy around football. He wrote it before the end of his first year with the Seahawks, and he hasn't changed much in his approach. What I appreciate most about Pete is that he HAS a point of view, a philosophy about football, and he is very consistent about how it is applied. We saw what he and John did to build the first SB version of the Seahawks. People say Pete/John got 'lucky' in the drafts of 2011 and 2012 but they were looking for a type, and they found it. The job Pete/John did building the team from the dregs available when they were hired was remarkable.
In Win Forever Pete sets out as his model Marv Levy, coach of the Bills team that made the SB four straight years. For Pete the point is to be able to compete at the highest level--the championship game itself is a bit of a crapshoot. Getting to and staying at the pinnacle of the NFL is a great accomplishment.
In the salary cap era it is difficult to keep the foundation of a championship team together. The 2012=2015 run was pretty darn good! In fact the only real criticism of Pete that I have is that he should have made the deal to trade Russ a year earlier than he did. But there is no question the team today is far superior to the 2021 version, and its future is brighter.
What Pete refers to as a "balanced offense" is far more run-heavy than the analytic types like Baldwin like. Too bad. Pete's philosophy of winning the turnover battle, have a strong run game that allows the team to control the pace of play and make sure the D is fresh, and make enough explosive plays to get TDs/FGs while preventing them on D... has been shown to be one way of winning. It's sometimes ugly but it gets the job done.
What we get to watch now as fans, is the process of Pete/John creating another SB-competitive team. They are one more great draft away from doing it with the draft capital they have now. Thiis team is just so much fun to watch from that perspective!
Ol' Ben's shot about the QB trade, etc. sure is aging poorly, to date....
I know there will be a better place to make this survivor comment but I'm old, I'd forget.
Van Dyke needs to return to school next year. He grabbed his right, throwing shoulder after a sack and didn't return so he might get a medical retirement from QB Survivor.
DJ Uiagalelei's draft stock took a major hit after he was benched and his replacement brought Clemson back against Duke.
"Expect the unexpected"!
We may need an injury substitution and Bo Nix looks like he should be in the competition. 22/28, 5 tds, 0 ints, 51 rds rushing but most of all, he looks like the game's most impactful player against UCLA.
There are substitutions already in talks with the QB Survivor committee (the voices in my head)
Always good to talk QB Survivor!
Well my pick for a player that wasn't included was Bo Nix. I take solace that there is at least one who feels the same.
With Russ out this week is anyone else hoping that Rypien throws for 350 yards and 3 TD's and Denver has a full blown QB controversy on their hands?
Because my focus is to create as many losses as possible for Denver, I feel it is better to have coach Nathan Hackett to truly Blow a major decision...nothing hurts a team more than Not believing in its coach.
No I hope he plays OK but loses, for our draft. It is only now that the football world see's that Russ can't see the open men in the middle of the field. Kyler Murray suffers the sameway. I couldn't help but notice Seattle didn't full out attack Kyler but they muddied the A and B gap on his right side his throwing arm. This slowed his throwing and allowed us to get 6 sacs. He did run for 100 yards but that resulted in very little. What a great game plan, it would be nice to see a new scheme to slow down the Chargers
As long as they lose, that sounds wonderful to me.
I don't hate Ben Baldwin, I rarely even think about Ben Baldwin. I chose to comment about him because I was in one of those moods, the joke presented itself and I thought it was funny (although it probably wasn't). :-)
But I do luv me some Kenny. Your arguments are well thought out and crafted and that puts you miles ahead of the Baldwins and Barnwells of the world.
I love this article but I'm sure you'd be just as happy if I hated it. What you can't afford is "meh".
Whether Pete's results have been good or bad (they've been good which makes this easier) the thing I enjoy about Pete is his love for the game and his positive attitude. Belichick is a great coach, but for me, his sideline grinch act detracts from the experince. Pete seems to embrace your philosophy of non-hate. Several players who the Hawks have cut have expressed anger and taken jabs at Pete including Thomas' famous finger. Pete defends them. The narrative I find funniest is that football has passed Pete by because he insists on running the ball. The unbaised fact is that Pete has been very adaptable throughout his career. He changed his coaching style before going to USC. Very few coaches can say they changed the game but Pete's 2012 defense did just that. Yet, here we are with a new defense and a new-fangled McVey offense that runs the ball. Damn, that old man is stubborn.
Cassius Marsh hated playing in New England—it was a joyless chore.
This is my favorite post you've written.
All kinds of things I want to comment about, but I mostly wanted to say that.
Thank you!