Spending the most is not necessarily the answer. BUT you also can't be the cheapest and expect it to work either. The most resigned players in the whole NFL are O-linemen , meaning when a team has good guys, usually the keep them or try to. The problem must lie in the scouting, assessment and also probably coaching. Maybe look back at one of the best O-lines ( for sure in Seattle ) that has been around for a long time under Holmgren. They paid some bucks but it paid off (other than they were bit woeful in the D-secondary on those teams ). O-linemen need to play together to understand each other and what and how they need to work together. That doesn't happen overnight. But currently our guard play is woeful, and that is usually ( along with the center ) where a run game gets started and has success. There will be no consistency on offense until this issue gets corrected.
I like the idea of restating our OL financial commitment.. These 5 players function as a unit, a cohesive team (can you tell I coached HS FB, HC, and OL) I might pay the starting 5 or top 6 or 7 a group price they share. They earn as a cohesive unit, as a team. Draft 3 rd round or lower, get UDFA’s, etc… Have a pool of $$!, that is shared by starting 5 or top 6, and the rest is divided up among non-starters, subs, etc… This could be a new, unique way of paying an OL. The line calls, help, double-teams, combo blocks are all executed as a team!!
"Spending" is different from "investing", which we seem to have started to do with our 2024 draft class. I am hopeful in 2-3 years half of these picks will pan out as they get into their man-strength years, and our trenches will be a position of strength. We seem to be mindful of comp picks once again, which should equate to hitting on more of these lottery tickets in the middle rounds.
I am hopeful that a renewed focus on the trenches will equate to the 'Hawks being bullies again in the near future rather than just athletic marvels with scary traits.
You know, the question is what SSJ brought up, which is that there's the cap and then there's the budget. If there's a budget at the VMAC that says you have to clean the slate, get rid of dead money, no stretching like Detroit is doing (and LA seems very happy to do, paying the debt forward) then you're still paying for the horrible Adams trade.
How much do you tear down? Seattle's last, and pretty much only run at greatness did really come from the bottom of the barrel. The team after 2005 was pretty miserable and that let Pete begin from scratch. Being average since about 2017 has proven pretty deadly, because you were always in purgatory and the mythology of "always compete." For what, exactly? If you cannot win a single playoff game, if you even get into the dance, you're not really a dancer.
I'd rather see them tear down a bunch of the system and begin anew. What do you want to build? Decide, and then work toward that. And for heaven's sake, that does mean line play matters. It's not, as SSJ has rightly pointed out, about the money. But it IS about cohesion. For everything KC has lost, they haven't sacrificed the core of their offensive line. Ditto SF. Just go look around the league at teams that, oh, can RUN THE DAMN BALL! You have to move people to do that. Period.
So for the rest of the season what I'd hope McDonald wants to do is test his methods and his coaches' methods. Hunt for the cracks everywhere, and then boot what doesn't work and who doesn't work. To get from A to B be ready to toss out whatever and whoever doesn't make sense. It'll be painful for at least 1.5 seasons, and probably a little longer.
It's a nice concept but if you have one or two linemen that are closer to elite (along with a line position that is more in demand) then they wouldn't want to earn less than they would on any other team just 'cause of TEAM. They'd soon be going elsewhere.
I’m not worried about how much the Seahawks spend on the offensive line. I think one of the biggest factors to O-line success is continuity. The players need to know what the person next to them is doing and trust that it’s being done.
And this is my concern with our O-line. There is no continuity at all. Some of it is injuries. But some is the platooning at R guard. Just pick one, dammit!
It seems like continuity would be an interesting index number to figure out how to crunch to see how it correlates with other stats of OL performance & success.
Contracts, AAV etc tell you nothing about quality - at any position. That an "expert" would try to tell you otherwise says everything you need to know about said "export" - they are either the opposite of an expert, or more likely, just tryring to find something generate content and clicks.
For the 'Hawks. Yes there's work to do, but i see as many good OLine snaps per player as i see bad ones. There is talent in the building and the coaches are now on the spot to develop that so every snap is a good snap. Lets say it takes 7 years to get a top tier OLine, we're in Year 2 of that timeline. I think we're doing well at it (but again every week i seem to be one of the few who thinks our OLine is about league average) and should put a little trust in JS with Huff, Grubb, Peetz, Nugent & Odom (and the Strength & Conditioning staff). The OLine is better than last year imo, and looks to have a brighter future, and that's what we should be seeing.
I just want to dig in on the Lions briefly, because their route to an elite OL is an interesting one.
The team drafted 4/5 of this year's line, with 3 of those being top 20 picks, however there hasn't been an OL drafted before R4 since 2021 (3 or 4 total players). In order to get Sewell the Lions needed 2 teams to reach on QBs and both the Falcons and Bengals overlooking him in favour of a skill position player. They developed guys like Jonah Jackson, Logan Stenberg and Joe Dahl (the latter 2 were spot starters, which is fine for day 3 guys) along the interior and also invested in FAs like Vaitai and Zeitler. What does this tell us about building an elite OL?
1) Retain your quality players even if they are expensive; Decker, Ragnow and Glasgow all got near-top-of-market extensions.
2) Develop your youngsters, but don't rely on them; have quality vets ready to lead the line every year.
3) Be opportunistic when other teams are looking the wrong way AND don't be afraid to go against conventional wisdom to grab a generational talent (using the #7 overall pick on a guy who is gonna play RT for the whole of his rookie deal is not how most teams operate)
You've got to START OFF with multiple Pro Bowl quality guys to build an elite OL. Seattle have maybe 1 guy that fits that description right now in Cross. It's gonna be a multi year job at minimum.
Aligning production to $$'s is perhaps the most important job for any GM in any sport. Every mistake costs the team. It's why hitting on draft picks benefits the team so much......low $$'s and big production. It's true for any position. Mistakes are costly, and for multiple years.
The Seahawks have a pool of potential talent on the o-line now, and JS and the coaching staff need to figure out what trajectory those players are on. What is Lumea? What is Big Mike? What is Haynes? Sundell? If those are real NFL players in a year or two, then we're in great shape. If they aren't, we're in terrible shape and may need to risk the $$'s to the FA market.
Like many fans, I was hoping Grubb and Huff would work magic on the o-line and turn water into wine, but alas, that likely wasn't realistic. We don't even know what THEY are yet, let alone some of these young players. Patience I guess.
Boy, would I love to be a fly on the wall after a game like Sunday, and listen to Mike MacDonald and Leslie Frazier discuss the team, what they saw, and what they think.
“…fans have lost patience before the team has had a chance to prove if their plan will work…”
I’ve been waiting for 10+ years now. Any thoughts on when we can expect a plan seemingly based on mediocre drafting and “value” FAs will start working?
Day 2: Britt, Haynes, Lewis, Lucas, Moffit, Odhiambo, Pocic
Day 3: Bowie, Bradford, Forsyth, Glowinski, C. Haynes, P. Haynes, Hunt, Jones, Laumea, Oluwatimi, Poole, Scott, Seymour
Is anyone here impressed with this?
Then throw in some genuinely abysmal FA signings (e.g., Joeckl, Sowell, Webb) and anyone could be forgiven for wondering whether Schneider can build a decent OL.
If building a championship team was easy any of us could be doing it. The fact is that this is JS first year as GM without PC. He hired a HC with no HC experience and an OC with no NFL experience. He obviously sees something in them, truthfully I liked and still like both hires. However, there were bound to be growing pains and there have been.
Moving on from PC was not a one year proposition, but a strategic revamp, rebuild, realignment, whatever you want to call it. If the Hawks gel in the 2nd half and win the division, great it’s what we all root for. But if they don’t it won’t be a shock or the end of the master plan. None of the current elite teams won a SB the first year of their new coach and we shouldn’t be expecting that.
Relax, enjoy the games, let our rookie coaches learn on the job. It’s the only way they can grow into the coaches we all hope they will become.
It seems like the more the cap numbers become accessible, the more people either misunderstand them or misuse them to prove whatever preconceived idea or point they had to make.
There are only two numbers that matter total average salary cap hit per year and guaranteed money. All NFL contracts will be back end loaded which is why it is always misleading to say this year's cap hit is X. Cap hits should always be talked about in terms of AAV.
Having said that, I don't think his bigger point is off (that the Seahawks don't invest in the O-line). The GM has said so much "Guards are over drafted and overpaid". This is a core philosophy with the Seahawks that they will not pay market prices for Guards. Either in the draft or free agency. We will be shopping in the bargain bin for guards unless JS changes (unlikely) or we get a new GM.
Spending the most is not necessarily the answer. BUT you also can't be the cheapest and expect it to work either. The most resigned players in the whole NFL are O-linemen , meaning when a team has good guys, usually the keep them or try to. The problem must lie in the scouting, assessment and also probably coaching. Maybe look back at one of the best O-lines ( for sure in Seattle ) that has been around for a long time under Holmgren. They paid some bucks but it paid off (other than they were bit woeful in the D-secondary on those teams ). O-linemen need to play together to understand each other and what and how they need to work together. That doesn't happen overnight. But currently our guard play is woeful, and that is usually ( along with the center ) where a run game gets started and has success. There will be no consistency on offense until this issue gets corrected.
I like the idea of restating our OL financial commitment.. These 5 players function as a unit, a cohesive team (can you tell I coached HS FB, HC, and OL) I might pay the starting 5 or top 6 or 7 a group price they share. They earn as a cohesive unit, as a team. Draft 3 rd round or lower, get UDFA’s, etc… Have a pool of $$!, that is shared by starting 5 or top 6, and the rest is divided up among non-starters, subs, etc… This could be a new, unique way of paying an OL. The line calls, help, double-teams, combo blocks are all executed as a team!!
"Spending" is different from "investing", which we seem to have started to do with our 2024 draft class. I am hopeful in 2-3 years half of these picks will pan out as they get into their man-strength years, and our trenches will be a position of strength. We seem to be mindful of comp picks once again, which should equate to hitting on more of these lottery tickets in the middle rounds.
I am hopeful that a renewed focus on the trenches will equate to the 'Hawks being bullies again in the near future rather than just athletic marvels with scary traits.
You know, the question is what SSJ brought up, which is that there's the cap and then there's the budget. If there's a budget at the VMAC that says you have to clean the slate, get rid of dead money, no stretching like Detroit is doing (and LA seems very happy to do, paying the debt forward) then you're still paying for the horrible Adams trade.
How much do you tear down? Seattle's last, and pretty much only run at greatness did really come from the bottom of the barrel. The team after 2005 was pretty miserable and that let Pete begin from scratch. Being average since about 2017 has proven pretty deadly, because you were always in purgatory and the mythology of "always compete." For what, exactly? If you cannot win a single playoff game, if you even get into the dance, you're not really a dancer.
I'd rather see them tear down a bunch of the system and begin anew. What do you want to build? Decide, and then work toward that. And for heaven's sake, that does mean line play matters. It's not, as SSJ has rightly pointed out, about the money. But it IS about cohesion. For everything KC has lost, they haven't sacrificed the core of their offensive line. Ditto SF. Just go look around the league at teams that, oh, can RUN THE DAMN BALL! You have to move people to do that. Period.
So for the rest of the season what I'd hope McDonald wants to do is test his methods and his coaches' methods. Hunt for the cracks everywhere, and then boot what doesn't work and who doesn't work. To get from A to B be ready to toss out whatever and whoever doesn't make sense. It'll be painful for at least 1.5 seasons, and probably a little longer.
Seaside Joe… read my message on paying OL as a team… Total $$$ divided by 5, or 6 if you include top sub
It's a nice concept but if you have one or two linemen that are closer to elite (along with a line position that is more in demand) then they wouldn't want to earn less than they would on any other team just 'cause of TEAM. They'd soon be going elsewhere.
I’m not worried about how much the Seahawks spend on the offensive line. I think one of the biggest factors to O-line success is continuity. The players need to know what the person next to them is doing and trust that it’s being done.
And this is my concern with our O-line. There is no continuity at all. Some of it is injuries. But some is the platooning at R guard. Just pick one, dammit!
Thanks for the education.
This is a good analysis and a reminder that roster construction is sometimes more nuanced than some analysts/fans care to delve into.
It seems like continuity would be an interesting index number to figure out how to crunch to see how it correlates with other stats of OL performance & success.
Contracts, AAV etc tell you nothing about quality - at any position. That an "expert" would try to tell you otherwise says everything you need to know about said "export" - they are either the opposite of an expert, or more likely, just tryring to find something generate content and clicks.
For the 'Hawks. Yes there's work to do, but i see as many good OLine snaps per player as i see bad ones. There is talent in the building and the coaches are now on the spot to develop that so every snap is a good snap. Lets say it takes 7 years to get a top tier OLine, we're in Year 2 of that timeline. I think we're doing well at it (but again every week i seem to be one of the few who thinks our OLine is about league average) and should put a little trust in JS with Huff, Grubb, Peetz, Nugent & Odom (and the Strength & Conditioning staff). The OLine is better than last year imo, and looks to have a brighter future, and that's what we should be seeing.
I just want to dig in on the Lions briefly, because their route to an elite OL is an interesting one.
The team drafted 4/5 of this year's line, with 3 of those being top 20 picks, however there hasn't been an OL drafted before R4 since 2021 (3 or 4 total players). In order to get Sewell the Lions needed 2 teams to reach on QBs and both the Falcons and Bengals overlooking him in favour of a skill position player. They developed guys like Jonah Jackson, Logan Stenberg and Joe Dahl (the latter 2 were spot starters, which is fine for day 3 guys) along the interior and also invested in FAs like Vaitai and Zeitler. What does this tell us about building an elite OL?
1) Retain your quality players even if they are expensive; Decker, Ragnow and Glasgow all got near-top-of-market extensions.
2) Develop your youngsters, but don't rely on them; have quality vets ready to lead the line every year.
3) Be opportunistic when other teams are looking the wrong way AND don't be afraid to go against conventional wisdom to grab a generational talent (using the #7 overall pick on a guy who is gonna play RT for the whole of his rookie deal is not how most teams operate)
You've got to START OFF with multiple Pro Bowl quality guys to build an elite OL. Seattle have maybe 1 guy that fits that description right now in Cross. It's gonna be a multi year job at minimum.
Aligning production to $$'s is perhaps the most important job for any GM in any sport. Every mistake costs the team. It's why hitting on draft picks benefits the team so much......low $$'s and big production. It's true for any position. Mistakes are costly, and for multiple years.
The Seahawks have a pool of potential talent on the o-line now, and JS and the coaching staff need to figure out what trajectory those players are on. What is Lumea? What is Big Mike? What is Haynes? Sundell? If those are real NFL players in a year or two, then we're in great shape. If they aren't, we're in terrible shape and may need to risk the $$'s to the FA market.
Like many fans, I was hoping Grubb and Huff would work magic on the o-line and turn water into wine, but alas, that likely wasn't realistic. We don't even know what THEY are yet, let alone some of these young players. Patience I guess.
Boy, would I love to be a fly on the wall after a game like Sunday, and listen to Mike MacDonald and Leslie Frazier discuss the team, what they saw, and what they think.
“…fans have lost patience before the team has had a chance to prove if their plan will work…”
I’ve been waiting for 10+ years now. Any thoughts on when we can expect a plan seemingly based on mediocre drafting and “value” FAs will start working?
Offensive line drafts under Schneider:
2010: Russell Okung (1)
2011: James Carpenter (1), John Moffitt (3)
2013: Michael Bowie (7), Ryan Seymour (7)
2014: Justin Britt (2), Garrett Scott (6)
2015: Mark Glowinski (4), Terry Poole (4)
2016: Germain Ifedi (1), Rees Odhiambo (3), Joey Hunt (6)
2017: Ethan Pocic (2)
2018: Jamarco Jones (5)
2019: Phil Haynes (4)
2020: Damien Lewis (3)
2021: Stone Forsyth (6)
2022: Charles Cross (1), Abraham Lucas (3)
2023: Anthony Bradford (4), Olu Oluwatimi (5)
2024: Christian Haynes (3), Sataoa Laumea (6)
Broken down:
Day 1: Carpenter, Cross, Ifedi, Okung
Day 2: Britt, Haynes, Lewis, Lucas, Moffit, Odhiambo, Pocic
Day 3: Bowie, Bradford, Forsyth, Glowinski, C. Haynes, P. Haynes, Hunt, Jones, Laumea, Oluwatimi, Poole, Scott, Seymour
Is anyone here impressed with this?
Then throw in some genuinely abysmal FA signings (e.g., Joeckl, Sowell, Webb) and anyone could be forgiven for wondering whether Schneider can build a decent OL.
C. Haynes should be Day 2, not Day 3.
If building a championship team was easy any of us could be doing it. The fact is that this is JS first year as GM without PC. He hired a HC with no HC experience and an OC with no NFL experience. He obviously sees something in them, truthfully I liked and still like both hires. However, there were bound to be growing pains and there have been.
Moving on from PC was not a one year proposition, but a strategic revamp, rebuild, realignment, whatever you want to call it. If the Hawks gel in the 2nd half and win the division, great it’s what we all root for. But if they don’t it won’t be a shock or the end of the master plan. None of the current elite teams won a SB the first year of their new coach and we shouldn’t be expecting that.
Relax, enjoy the games, let our rookie coaches learn on the job. It’s the only way they can grow into the coaches we all hope they will become.
It seems like the more the cap numbers become accessible, the more people either misunderstand them or misuse them to prove whatever preconceived idea or point they had to make.
There are only two numbers that matter total average salary cap hit per year and guaranteed money. All NFL contracts will be back end loaded which is why it is always misleading to say this year's cap hit is X. Cap hits should always be talked about in terms of AAV.
Having said that, I don't think his bigger point is off (that the Seahawks don't invest in the O-line). The GM has said so much "Guards are over drafted and overpaid". This is a core philosophy with the Seahawks that they will not pay market prices for Guards. Either in the draft or free agency. We will be shopping in the bargain bin for guards unless JS changes (unlikely) or we get a new GM.