I already disliked the Broncos before they drafted Elway and his obnoxious personality didn’t change that. They were the first division rival that I really disliked and the change of conferences didn’t change that. I loved Kreig’s underdog, Milton college story and hated Elway’s “I’m too special for the Colts” pout. I can’t argue with Elway’s talent, but he just always rubbed me wrong.
I’ll admit that some of my lingering dislike is jealousy. Seven SBs with three victories is nothing to sneeze at! The Hawks SB win against the Broncos was the absolutely best outcome I could have as it was against a former hated division rival. Plus beating our current hated division rival to get there.
As to current QB situations- I watched Nix at Oregon and saw a competent guy who could surprise us. However, I didn’t see him being appreciably better than Smith or Howell. I guess time will tell.
With you but those Elway “wins” require a major asterisk since he was a big “L”oser until TD (Davis) was drafted as the RB. Like Eli winning a SB, Elway only won because of the best RB in the NFL. Then Elway was spanked and given the worse SB loss when he was a GM. Finally one can recall his whinny ways in the Kingdome during those “it’s too loud to play” days.
There is a story that in 1991, Tom Flores and Chuck Knox wanted to draft Brett Favre in the first round (#16) but were overruled by Ken Behring, who liked the idea of a 6’8” QB and insisted on Dan McGwire. What gives that credence is that Flores and Knox were successful NFL lifers who between the two of them had to know that McGwire wasn’t any good.
The Elway and Manning model is a little distorted when it comes to Super Bowl wins. Neither one won Super Bowls with the Broncos when they were elite quarterbacks. Both, instead were game managers. Elway for a dominant running team short past team with a top 5 defense. (49ers now). When Manning won with the Broncos he had been benched early in the year and when the Broncos turned to him he was a game manager who protected the football and capitalized on turnovers. (Dilfer - Ravens). What I am saying is that elite QBs without top defenses rarely win super bowls. And teams with elite defenses can win with average QBs. Denver won 3 Super Bowls because of defense and running not because they had an elite QB. They lost 4 badly when they were relying on an elite QB. (Not counting 77 because that is prehistoric times when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, Elway was not the QB of the Broncos and the Seahawks ).
I don't profess to be a great talent evaluator, so I don't really know what Bo Nix is. I do know his statistical profile is excellent. Whether that translates to the NFL is TBD. He has a mental case as a head coach, so he hasn't landed in an ideal circumstance, but if they look at his Oregon tape, sort out what he is excellent at, and wrap an offense around that, there is no reason he shouldn't enjoy a degree of success.
More and more I think draft busts are not just bad talent choices, but bad talent development and usage. There is no way Bo Nix doesn't do a bunch of things very well, so he should, at a minimum, be an average NFL QB. If asked to play someone else's game, he might be out of the league in 5 years.
You can make the game pretty easy for your QB (see Purdy, Brock), or really hard, which I think happens more often than not. I think Mike Mac wants to make it easy. Build a defense that can get off the field and turn the ball over, develop an o-line that can blow people off the ball AND protect the QB, and design an offense around the strengths of the QB. Easier said than done though.
This is the first post I’ve found to almost completely disagree with SSJ (I still love you though).
“probably 20-40 spots higher than anyone imagined he would go” - too harsh man. Nix was the pick of the QB’s in this draft IMO. As I’ve stated above, his final year at the Ducks was better than any from Herbert- and I know you’re a fan of him. Time will tell I guess, but I’d back Nix to be successful over time, if not almost immediately.
Also, what is the ultimate goal for any team/club? It has to be SB’s doesn’t it? And given this post, it appears that the Bronco’s have been better at reaching this goal than us (as much as that hurts to say). Maybe they were lucky with a Manning, but it takes more than just a QB too. They seem to have found the recipe more times than us.
And as I’ve said multiple times, Geno aint it. We still need to find something at QB. Otherwise the rest of the team has to improve to carry him to the ultimate prize.
Shout-out to the 6% voting for the Broncos! Madness but gotta love how much you clearly believe in Zach Wilson ;)
That Simpsons moment is iconic. But lest we not forget it's the end joke to what I think is the single best episode ever. Hey SSJ, if you're looking for off-season articles what about Seahawks referenced in media and famous Seahawks GIFs?
And damn, that's a swag bag and a half. Kenneth you are killing the blogging game and fostering an outstanding community.
Through the grapevine in the days of the early 80's , I heard that Chuck Knox didn't want Elway- Thought he was a diva and didn't want to deal with him- BIG mistake ,Obviously as he completely took the Hawks out of the playoffs multiple years! I believe that Bo Nix given the chance, Plus a decent O-line will be a very good QB in the NFL! But that means Denver has to fix their O-line as Seattle is working on , but will they ? He has the tools and the right (apparently) mindset and demeanor to be a very successful QB in the NFL. But if it's me ,I don't start him , I fix the o-line and let him sit a year and learn what IDJET Payton wants and how his system is supposed to work to be absorbed. Then I believe you will get a really good QB that can be way better than many think!
Stouffer was a supplemental pick that was eventually traded from the Cardinals for right? For a broken Kenny Easley and some change. I don't think Stouffer actually cost Seattle a first.
Stouffer was pick number 6 in the first round , when Ken Behring owned the team. His son didn't want to pick him and I know that for a fact! I was doing a remodel in David's house when all this was going down and believe it or not had several Hawks conversations with David. He was actually a very nice guy as apposed to his dad who was an arrogant asshat! IMHO.
I got a Rick Mirer jersey for Christmas after his rookie year, and had asked for Eugene Robinson, if I remember correctly. I think my Mom just went to the sports apparel shop in Charlotte, NC and instead of ordering me the one I wanted, just bought the Seahawks jersey they had in my size. I'm ashamed to say that I wasn't the best gift recipient of that jersey.
Yeah, either he missed one (I think the line you are questioning was when he said we have spent a 1st rd pick on a QB twice EVER), or "ever" just meant back to 1990 (or 1988 for that matter).
Maybe it wasn't as Outkast would say, "forever-ever. ForEVER-ever?!"
Never met elway, so I can't say I don't like him. But i don't. Tebow also insisted on taking a knee, but for all the wrong reasons, apparently. His treatment by elway still irks me.
I'm probably the lone Broncos vote in our poll. Geno is above average. He has limitations and drives me crazy sometimes, but if I were ranking the 32 projected starters next year, he would be well over #16. I thought Sam Howell was pretty much a trash can in Washington. He has some highlights, and I watched one video after the trade that I thought would make the average casual fan think we had landed a budding star. But he doesn't move well in the pocket and doesn't protect the ball and those are kinda huge in the NFL. Had you phrased it as "Would you trade our #1 and #2 QBs for Denver's right now?" I would not have clicked that "YES!" button quite as quickly as I snatch my remote control to mute my TV when the sing song Burger King ads come on. I would have to ponder that one for a minute. But I would still vote yes.
I don't think Geno has more years with the team (as in plural, he gets resigned) and I don't think Howell is going to be the answer, and I do think that we are going to be searching for our quarterback of the future every year until we find him once Geno is no longer our starter. And I hate to say it but Denver has a chance with Nix. Who I bet has already broken an NFL record by having the shortest first and last name combination in NFL history.
Take my football evaluations for what they are worth, but I liked him better than anyone in this draft. And yeah, I'm aware he doesn't have the ceiling of Caleb Williams, Jalon Daniels or Penix. I first realized he was way better than I thought from my limited viewing watching Oregon games and clips -often to see opponents playing them who I thought that we might draft. Then I started watching his stuff and wishing we might draft him. So I was happy to see him drafted early but sad that Denver got him. For no real reason after the Super Bowl beatdown, I really dislike the Broncos as much and almost more than our division rivals. And I'm pissy that Sean Peyton gets this guy because I wish for the Broncos to remain in QB purgatory almost as much as I wish for San Fran to never win the big one. Stupid Sean Peyton will get his stupid "QB whisperer" nickname stamped into history because he has another really great QB in Nix.
Caleb or Jalon (Oh, how I wish parents in the US would stop with alternate spellings for a normal name that I'm otherwise confident how to pronounce, but a single vowel throws me off and spellcheck hates me) will likely be who turns out to be the star of this draft, by the smart guy's who know this stuff. But I wouldn't diss the Broncos for Nix. I know, he's older at 24, but between Auburn and Oregon only has gotten better each year. Sure, he had the most starts in FBS history, but that's just experience. And he's seasoned as can be in tough conferences. He's really good and I would have taken him over Murphy III. I don't expect a lot of agreement but I'd bet on him over anyone in their rookie year. He will slice and dice a defense and within 20 yards he's the best QB in this draft. He does it all except for accurate long throws downfield and I'm not sure his deep ball is entirely fairly judged. And I certainly don't understand why he was lumped in with bums like Rattler.
Bo Nix is the next Denver mistake. Fans forget that he flamed out on a good Auburn team. The Ducks great team and passing scheme and a QB desperate Broncos resulted in over drafting a late 2nd rounder.
With QBs It's always the same dilemma, is this a good college QB on great team ( see McCarthy) or a great QB on a mediocre team ? I have always adhered to the Bill Walsh school of QB evaluations: 1 intelligence, 2 accuracy, 3 movement in the pocket. 4 leadership and 5 arm strength. Ergo Joe Montana in the 3rd round. The arm strength to throw the ball 80 yards with a stupid QB results Ryan Leafs and Marcus Russells.
To be fair, Nix left Auburn because he openly said he was miserable playing for Bryan Harsin and staff. He played the last stretch injured in 2021 (his last season there and lone season under Harsin) and still beat LSU and Ole Miss before becoming a shell of himself as injuries piled up before that kill shot vs Miss State ended his season. I'll admit I'm a Bo Nix apologist, and I hate to even reply to a comment I disagree with. But it's your part about Bill Walsh's list: Bo Nix checks all those boxes! He's the best among these guys at the beginning and where he would drop off below others is 4 & 5. Assuming they are listed by importance.
Maybe I'm wrong and surely there was a reason that he was the 6th QB off of the board, and that reason isn't how dumb NFL evaluators are. But dang, he is on point every time you watch him throwing it around over the middle, quick slants, all the things that get you first downs in the NFL. He's not as fast running for yardage as Jalon or as polished as Williams but I honestly think he'll not only turn out to be the best of this crop but have the most success as a rookie. It's not his fault that he's a Bronco, and I will try not to hold that against him. But it will make it harder for me to root for who became my dark horse hopeful draft guy. Though even this scenario I hoped for, he'd last until our round 3 pick. I'm still kind of blown away that half of the first 12 picks were quarterbacks.
Nothing like a good analogy and a fresh take that provides some perspective. I love that you (Kenneth) check your biases and really try to get to the truth of the matter. That is 100% why I support you and the SSJ blog. No one else out there seems to do this to the level you do, and I think your "bias-checked-logic" provides remarkably good insight. Keep it up.
Interesting comparison. Always fun to take a look back.
Although P Manning was not very good when they won the SB. I think it would be more fair to say they won the SB in spite of Manning rather than because of him. They had the number 1 defense in the league that year.
I think that Manning started out well, but then got injured and Osweiler took over. He came back for the playoffs and was a shell of himself. Could only throw short passes.
One could even argue that SB 50 is an example of a team winning despite having a bad QB. Maybe we need to start adding Peyton to the list of mediocre QBs who won the Super Bowl because of a killer supporting cast.
Wilson was so good that he made up for team deficiencies. Once he got hurt and started to age out of his elusiveness, it was obvious we were (are) more than just a QB away. When we get to "just a QB away", I'll start calling for JS (or whomever) to start throwing resources at attempts to get a difference making QB. As of now, we haven't had that opportunity to jump on, and we may have ended up mortgaging the overall team to get a great QB that still wouldn't carry our incomplete team to a SB. I am content with an above average Geno, and an above average QB prospect who could become great waiting in the wings to not write back to D.C. when he gets his shot.
I already disliked the Broncos before they drafted Elway and his obnoxious personality didn’t change that. They were the first division rival that I really disliked and the change of conferences didn’t change that. I loved Kreig’s underdog, Milton college story and hated Elway’s “I’m too special for the Colts” pout. I can’t argue with Elway’s talent, but he just always rubbed me wrong.
I’ll admit that some of my lingering dislike is jealousy. Seven SBs with three victories is nothing to sneeze at! The Hawks SB win against the Broncos was the absolutely best outcome I could have as it was against a former hated division rival. Plus beating our current hated division rival to get there.
As to current QB situations- I watched Nix at Oregon and saw a competent guy who could surprise us. However, I didn’t see him being appreciably better than Smith or Howell. I guess time will tell.
With you but those Elway “wins” require a major asterisk since he was a big “L”oser until TD (Davis) was drafted as the RB. Like Eli winning a SB, Elway only won because of the best RB in the NFL. Then Elway was spanked and given the worse SB loss when he was a GM. Finally one can recall his whinny ways in the Kingdome during those “it’s too loud to play” days.
There is a story that in 1991, Tom Flores and Chuck Knox wanted to draft Brett Favre in the first round (#16) but were overruled by Ken Behring, who liked the idea of a 6’8” QB and insisted on Dan McGwire. What gives that credence is that Flores and Knox were successful NFL lifers who between the two of them had to know that McGwire wasn’t any good.
You rock those shades Shaymus!
The Elway and Manning model is a little distorted when it comes to Super Bowl wins. Neither one won Super Bowls with the Broncos when they were elite quarterbacks. Both, instead were game managers. Elway for a dominant running team short past team with a top 5 defense. (49ers now). When Manning won with the Broncos he had been benched early in the year and when the Broncos turned to him he was a game manager who protected the football and capitalized on turnovers. (Dilfer - Ravens). What I am saying is that elite QBs without top defenses rarely win super bowls. And teams with elite defenses can win with average QBs. Denver won 3 Super Bowls because of defense and running not because they had an elite QB. They lost 4 badly when they were relying on an elite QB. (Not counting 77 because that is prehistoric times when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, Elway was not the QB of the Broncos and the Seahawks ).
Just posted same. Prior to drafting Terrell Davis, Elway was another SB loser.
I don't profess to be a great talent evaluator, so I don't really know what Bo Nix is. I do know his statistical profile is excellent. Whether that translates to the NFL is TBD. He has a mental case as a head coach, so he hasn't landed in an ideal circumstance, but if they look at his Oregon tape, sort out what he is excellent at, and wrap an offense around that, there is no reason he shouldn't enjoy a degree of success.
More and more I think draft busts are not just bad talent choices, but bad talent development and usage. There is no way Bo Nix doesn't do a bunch of things very well, so he should, at a minimum, be an average NFL QB. If asked to play someone else's game, he might be out of the league in 5 years.
You can make the game pretty easy for your QB (see Purdy, Brock), or really hard, which I think happens more often than not. I think Mike Mac wants to make it easy. Build a defense that can get off the field and turn the ball over, develop an o-line that can blow people off the ball AND protect the QB, and design an offense around the strengths of the QB. Easier said than done though.
Well….
This is the first post I’ve found to almost completely disagree with SSJ (I still love you though).
“probably 20-40 spots higher than anyone imagined he would go” - too harsh man. Nix was the pick of the QB’s in this draft IMO. As I’ve stated above, his final year at the Ducks was better than any from Herbert- and I know you’re a fan of him. Time will tell I guess, but I’d back Nix to be successful over time, if not almost immediately.
Also, what is the ultimate goal for any team/club? It has to be SB’s doesn’t it? And given this post, it appears that the Bronco’s have been better at reaching this goal than us (as much as that hurts to say). Maybe they were lucky with a Manning, but it takes more than just a QB too. They seem to have found the recipe more times than us.
And as I’ve said multiple times, Geno aint it. We still need to find something at QB. Otherwise the rest of the team has to improve to carry him to the ultimate prize.
Shout-out to the 6% voting for the Broncos! Madness but gotta love how much you clearly believe in Zach Wilson ;)
That Simpsons moment is iconic. But lest we not forget it's the end joke to what I think is the single best episode ever. Hey SSJ, if you're looking for off-season articles what about Seahawks referenced in media and famous Seahawks GIFs?
And damn, that's a swag bag and a half. Kenneth you are killing the blogging game and fostering an outstanding community.
Through the grapevine in the days of the early 80's , I heard that Chuck Knox didn't want Elway- Thought he was a diva and didn't want to deal with him- BIG mistake ,Obviously as he completely took the Hawks out of the playoffs multiple years! I believe that Bo Nix given the chance, Plus a decent O-line will be a very good QB in the NFL! But that means Denver has to fix their O-line as Seattle is working on , but will they ? He has the tools and the right (apparently) mindset and demeanor to be a very successful QB in the NFL. But if it's me ,I don't start him , I fix the o-line and let him sit a year and learn what IDJET Payton wants and how his system is supposed to work to be absorbed. Then I believe you will get a really good QB that can be way better than many think!
Am I missing something here? Kelly Stouffer, Dan McGwire and Rick Mirer. Which was not a Seahawks first round pick?😊
The Cardinals selected Stouffer with the 6th pick in 1987. They couldn't agree on a contract so Seattle traded for him in 1988.
Stouffer was a supplemental pick that was eventually traded from the Cardinals for right? For a broken Kenny Easley and some change. I don't think Stouffer actually cost Seattle a first.
Stouffer was pick number 6 in the first round , when Ken Behring owned the team. His son didn't want to pick him and I know that for a fact! I was doing a remodel in David's house when all this was going down and believe it or not had several Hawks conversations with David. He was actually a very nice guy as apposed to his dad who was an arrogant asshat! IMHO.
Ah they traded a 1st and a 5th and also a 5th the next year to the Cardinals after they couldn't sign him, this was after Easley failed his physical.
I got a Rick Mirer jersey for Christmas after his rookie year, and had asked for Eugene Robinson, if I remember correctly. I think my Mom just went to the sports apparel shop in Charlotte, NC and instead of ordering me the one I wanted, just bought the Seahawks jersey they had in my size. I'm ashamed to say that I wasn't the best gift recipient of that jersey.
My parents knew NOT to get me a Mirer jersey :-). I’m with you on being bad gift recipient there (hope you made up with mom though)
Yeah, either he missed one (I think the line you are questioning was when he said we have spent a 1st rd pick on a QB twice EVER), or "ever" just meant back to 1990 (or 1988 for that matter).
Maybe it wasn't as Outkast would say, "forever-ever. ForEVER-ever?!"
Never met elway, so I can't say I don't like him. But i don't. Tebow also insisted on taking a knee, but for all the wrong reasons, apparently. His treatment by elway still irks me.
Congrats to Shaymus!
I'm probably the lone Broncos vote in our poll. Geno is above average. He has limitations and drives me crazy sometimes, but if I were ranking the 32 projected starters next year, he would be well over #16. I thought Sam Howell was pretty much a trash can in Washington. He has some highlights, and I watched one video after the trade that I thought would make the average casual fan think we had landed a budding star. But he doesn't move well in the pocket and doesn't protect the ball and those are kinda huge in the NFL. Had you phrased it as "Would you trade our #1 and #2 QBs for Denver's right now?" I would not have clicked that "YES!" button quite as quickly as I snatch my remote control to mute my TV when the sing song Burger King ads come on. I would have to ponder that one for a minute. But I would still vote yes.
I don't think Geno has more years with the team (as in plural, he gets resigned) and I don't think Howell is going to be the answer, and I do think that we are going to be searching for our quarterback of the future every year until we find him once Geno is no longer our starter. And I hate to say it but Denver has a chance with Nix. Who I bet has already broken an NFL record by having the shortest first and last name combination in NFL history.
Take my football evaluations for what they are worth, but I liked him better than anyone in this draft. And yeah, I'm aware he doesn't have the ceiling of Caleb Williams, Jalon Daniels or Penix. I first realized he was way better than I thought from my limited viewing watching Oregon games and clips -often to see opponents playing them who I thought that we might draft. Then I started watching his stuff and wishing we might draft him. So I was happy to see him drafted early but sad that Denver got him. For no real reason after the Super Bowl beatdown, I really dislike the Broncos as much and almost more than our division rivals. And I'm pissy that Sean Peyton gets this guy because I wish for the Broncos to remain in QB purgatory almost as much as I wish for San Fran to never win the big one. Stupid Sean Peyton will get his stupid "QB whisperer" nickname stamped into history because he has another really great QB in Nix.
Caleb or Jalon (Oh, how I wish parents in the US would stop with alternate spellings for a normal name that I'm otherwise confident how to pronounce, but a single vowel throws me off and spellcheck hates me) will likely be who turns out to be the star of this draft, by the smart guy's who know this stuff. But I wouldn't diss the Broncos for Nix. I know, he's older at 24, but between Auburn and Oregon only has gotten better each year. Sure, he had the most starts in FBS history, but that's just experience. And he's seasoned as can be in tough conferences. He's really good and I would have taken him over Murphy III. I don't expect a lot of agreement but I'd bet on him over anyone in their rookie year. He will slice and dice a defense and within 20 yards he's the best QB in this draft. He does it all except for accurate long throws downfield and I'm not sure his deep ball is entirely fairly judged. And I certainly don't understand why he was lumped in with bums like Rattler.
Here, here!
Bo Nix is the next Denver mistake. Fans forget that he flamed out on a good Auburn team. The Ducks great team and passing scheme and a QB desperate Broncos resulted in over drafting a late 2nd rounder.
With QBs It's always the same dilemma, is this a good college QB on great team ( see McCarthy) or a great QB on a mediocre team ? I have always adhered to the Bill Walsh school of QB evaluations: 1 intelligence, 2 accuracy, 3 movement in the pocket. 4 leadership and 5 arm strength. Ergo Joe Montana in the 3rd round. The arm strength to throw the ball 80 yards with a stupid QB results Ryan Leafs and Marcus Russells.
To be fair, Nix left Auburn because he openly said he was miserable playing for Bryan Harsin and staff. He played the last stretch injured in 2021 (his last season there and lone season under Harsin) and still beat LSU and Ole Miss before becoming a shell of himself as injuries piled up before that kill shot vs Miss State ended his season. I'll admit I'm a Bo Nix apologist, and I hate to even reply to a comment I disagree with. But it's your part about Bill Walsh's list: Bo Nix checks all those boxes! He's the best among these guys at the beginning and where he would drop off below others is 4 & 5. Assuming they are listed by importance.
Maybe I'm wrong and surely there was a reason that he was the 6th QB off of the board, and that reason isn't how dumb NFL evaluators are. But dang, he is on point every time you watch him throwing it around over the middle, quick slants, all the things that get you first downs in the NFL. He's not as fast running for yardage as Jalon or as polished as Williams but I honestly think he'll not only turn out to be the best of this crop but have the most success as a rookie. It's not his fault that he's a Bronco, and I will try not to hold that against him. But it will make it harder for me to root for who became my dark horse hopeful draft guy. Though even this scenario I hoped for, he'd last until our round 3 pick. I'm still kind of blown away that half of the first 12 picks were quarterbacks.
Scouts I watched didn't see much evidence of him reading defenses, that makes the field intelligence claim harder to hold up.
Completly agree!
Nothing like a good analogy and a fresh take that provides some perspective. I love that you (Kenneth) check your biases and really try to get to the truth of the matter. That is 100% why I support you and the SSJ blog. No one else out there seems to do this to the level you do, and I think your "bias-checked-logic" provides remarkably good insight. Keep it up.
ps - Shaymus - Looking good man!!!
Interesting comparison. Always fun to take a look back.
Although P Manning was not very good when they won the SB. I think it would be more fair to say they won the SB in spite of Manning rather than because of him. They had the number 1 defense in the league that year.
I think that Manning started out well, but then got injured and Osweiler took over. He came back for the playoffs and was a shell of himself. Could only throw short passes.
I'll take the Hawks approach.
One could even argue that SB 50 is an example of a team winning despite having a bad QB. Maybe we need to start adding Peyton to the list of mediocre QBs who won the Super Bowl because of a killer supporting cast.
Great point! Add it to the list!
Wilson was so good that he made up for team deficiencies. Once he got hurt and started to age out of his elusiveness, it was obvious we were (are) more than just a QB away. When we get to "just a QB away", I'll start calling for JS (or whomever) to start throwing resources at attempts to get a difference making QB. As of now, we haven't had that opportunity to jump on, and we may have ended up mortgaging the overall team to get a great QB that still wouldn't carry our incomplete team to a SB. I am content with an above average Geno, and an above average QB prospect who could become great waiting in the wings to not write back to D.C. when he gets his shot.