THIS from SSJ: "Anybody who the Seahawks hired last year would have to be a risk and Grubb at least appeared to fit Seattle’s personnel given what he had at UW with Michael Penix and 3 well-fed receivers."
Both Seattle Sports and Michael Shawn-Dugar from The Athletic aired precisely the same snippet from Grubb talking about learning on the job that in the NFL you cannot just target weak DBs or LBs. Ummm, yeah. Welcome to the NFL! MSD said that clip made him a little sick with the idea that Grubb wasn't acutely aware that the NFL is the best of the best, and therefore you're never going to have the same matchup discrepancies you get in college. And LOOK: Grubb should've seen exactly what happens to that dumpster-fire philosophy because he tried it one too many times when UDub got trounced by Michigan.
So even in the passing game, repeatedly, Seattle had the wrong scheme to play certain defenses. That's why you saw Geno stuck without an open receiver against Green Bay. And even the Giants. Those teams studied Seattle trying to pick on weaker players and playing a lot of zone. The result was that even when Geno had time, he had nowhere to send the ball.
As for Grubb being a "bad" hire, a lot of this comes back to what SSJ wrote about his radical plan to get Seattle to a franchise QB by trading chess pieces to amass a huge haul for the 2026 draft so they could move all those chips forward to move as high into the draft as feasible.
What that has to do with hiring Grubb is that decision was about timing and what options were left available. The answer: very few. SSJ is suggesting that Seattle must think harder about not being stuck there again in the future. So that means being strategic. If you want to get the franchise QB of the future, do all this dirty work ahead of time.
Likewise, if you want to be a defensive-first team, that means you have to be a ball-control team. Ideally you limit possessions for your opponent. That means Philly or Baltimore, or the BIlls. You grind down the field. Slowly and methodically. Watching Baltimore this season, you have a great template. And you don't have to have Lamar to do it.
Trading DK to Kansas City for their first round pick in 2026 seems to me selling DK for below market value, but if that is all his market value is then he has way more value to us as a player. SSJ correctly tells us that an extra year out is the equivalent of one round later. So the delayed first round pick for DK is seen as the same as a second round pick in 2025, but the actual pick is a going to be a very low first round pick so it's easily confused with only getting the equivalent of a third round pick for DK. Really? Personally, in terms of how he affects games, I would think he is worth at least a HIGH second round pick even in these days of diminished value for WR's.
Can DK be replaced even with a low first round pick? I doubt it. It's possible, but it sure isn't a guaranteed outcome, while DK is a known quality WR. We would need to immediately replace DK with our middle of the first round pick next year. Otherwise, we would find ourselves with just a single quality WR on the team. I can remember just a couple of years ago, fans were clamoring for a THIRD WR because no team could be great offensively with only two quality WR's. With Lockett falling off this year precipitously, we would need to replace our #1 WR and our #3 WR. to get back to where those fans thought we needed to be.
Many, and I find myself in this category, get frustrated with DK's penalties, fumbles, and drops. Fumbles I will throw out just because DK only fumbled once this year, and I think of it as an outlier that DK just needed a reminder about ball security. Penalties are passion penalties and immaturity penalties and DK like all people will grow out of his immaturity any year now. And then we would miss out on all those good years when he has matured into a force of nature with few downsides. I believe scientists have fixed the age of immaturity ending at 26, but some take a bit longer, certainly. Drops are getting fewer and fewer, but DK will never have Lockett's or Bobo's or JSN's hands, but I have seen improvement year over year over year and I expect that to continue.
Not a bad hire , just a philosophical disagreement. They did try to run but the OL was pushed back most of the time. What was he to do ? Remember how upset everyone was with Pc and the run run pass. ?
I put most of it on JS for years drafting guards and centers that are undersized ( Joey Hunt ) or physically weak.
I do not fully agree with you but yes I do get it. I’m fine either way but we’ve got Williams and Spoon vs just Carter. And Williams has better stats. Now what could we have had for the second rounder? Not sure but doubt better than Spoon and Williams. But I get it.
Totally. I’m a MLB mentally (not physically (Mike Singletary intensity..)). Some of my favorite players are Jacob Green, Big Red (completely owned one whole side of field when PC moved him from middle to edge), Manu, etc. Big Walt, Bush, Hutch etc. completely agree.
That's a joke. By any objective measure, Leo was far and away the better, and most impactful player. It's not even close. Carter is good, no question. But Leo was dominant.
You know who we saw matters more than we knew? Byron Murphy II. Because without him Seattle was way less effective against the Rams and continued to over-pursue upfield. Garapolo threw to the left flat the entire game, with a convoy of blockers up front. Maybe this was the result of also being short on legit DBs (Prichett ain't ready for prime time), and being willing to let them dink and dunk, but it was painful to watch.
Murph was solid, no question. And you're right, the games he missed were some of the worst defensively for us. That last Rams game wasn't pretty to watch for our defense, for all kinds of reasons. It was probably Spoons worst game of the year.
Given what we knew at draft time, on the outside, I wouldn't have drafted Carter either. He'd just been involved in an auto accident in which friends died. He went to Philly where there was a friend from college on the DL, and it worked. I'm glad for him that it did, because it could as easily have gone the other way.
PC really liked Bates. Had him at USC. Bates 20 years as a coach at various levels. TB SB as quality control. PC got rid of him because apparently while PC liked him as OC he was a dour person. PC wanted a lively culture and Bates wasn’t going to fit into that at the professional level.
I really appreciate your dedication to your craft and your commitments SSJ, putting this out even with now power and the fires. I am glad you and SSJay are both safe.
As for the Grubb hire, I think it was risky bringing someone straight from the college ranks. College football (IMO) has degraded so far over the past 10-15 years. I loved watching college ball on Saturdays, but I can't stomach it any longer, barely watching any. It is like watching the Harlem Globetrotters play the Washington Generals except without the humor and entertainment. Most teams/conferences/games are all offense, little defense. It seems to me that the NFL struggles trying to find quality OL, QBs (of course that is long term problem anyway), etc. are a result of this - they aren't learning to play good, rounded football in college. So bringing the OC from those ranks seemed like a doomed experiment. Hoping for someone who has spent time in the pros, maybe someone off the radar, to be the next OC for the Hawks.
I think Grubb took the bullet for Geno and the Oline. May be ( probably ) he didn't turn to more of the running game because he knew that the line couldn't block a mannequin. How many times did the backs run for a loss, no gain or held under 3 yards? Will a new OC with the same Oline do any better?
The D got all the upgrades and Grubb got Tomlinson and a Center that retired mid season.
If the new guy doesn't get much better lineman, and a QB that isn't a turn over machine, good luck!
No I don't think he was a bad hire, and I'm not a fan of quick firings like this one. But there must have been a philosophical disagreement that Grubb and Coach Mac couldn't resolve.
My wish is for a new OC that has sustained and proven capabilities over time, rather than swinging for the fences to find the next hot shot. Not sure who that could be, hoping it's not Schottenheimer (🫣). Maybe Mike LaFleur (but why would he leave the Rams) or Doug Pederson? Curious as to who you'd have on your list SSJ (I imagine could be Kafka, but he didn't shower himself in glory this year although he clearly didn't have Seattle's weapons)
Grubb was probably a high risk, high reward type of hire. He was very successful and innovative in college and even here he showed flashes, thinking of his screen game particularly. His philosophy doesn’t appear to be a perfect fit with MM, but there is no way I’d call it a bad hire. As SSJ pointed out yesterday, the Hawks were 14th on offense which means top 1/2 of the league, not 32nd.
I’m just as suspicious that it was a bad firing as a bad hiring. But since MM calls the shots and is always on the hot seat as HC, I want him to have full confidence in his OC.
I knew that with the huge number of rookie coaches on last year’s team that there would be issues somewhere. I think ending 10-7 with both the offense and defense ranked 14th is actually pretty respectable considering the inexperience amongst the entire coaching staff. I would probably have given everyone a 2nd year, but I’m not in the daily meetings and this is what MM wanted and he should get it.
Me too. Expected a Year 2. MacD is making a statement with this, as the 12s are growling, which upsets Jody. Gotta respect the structure they have set.
The Seahawks team is an NFL business. In business, unless you are President or CEO or a majority of the Board of Directors, you do as you are directed, especially with big decisions. If you don't like it, you can always resign and hopefully work elsewhere. Grubb was clearly told several times to call running plays more often. He didn't. Predictable result. I like the new regime, where accountability is not a buzzword.
When you have 3 defensive-minded men in leadership and only 1 offensive-minded guy, who is also a rookie NFL coach (not 1st-time coordinator, 1st time coach of any kind), then this is what happens. Maybe they hire an offensive consultant who knows the game but doesn't want to be in the thick anymore, or we look for an OC who has flopped as an HC (as suggested by other commenters previously). JS put 75+% of coaching focus on defense and 25% (less the experience factor) into offense... and got shit offense and vastly improved defense. Maybe he should balance that out some. Sound familiar? Pay next to nothing on OL, GET next to nothing on OL. No, SJ, I am not saying you have to spend top-10 to get top-10, but spending bottom-10 on retreads isnt the answer.
Wondering aloud here... Josh McDaniels? Rumors of him going back to NE as OC again are out there, so it's worth kicking the tires. I like the idea of Mark Brunell coming on, but not as a stand-alone OC. He would need a consultant type. Maybe the recently fired Doug Pederson?
Nah...gotta take shots. Just surprised JS took so many shots at once. First time NFL HC, First time NFL oc, first time NFL special teams coach. Like many here suggested and agreed with, experience would be nice. I just don't know where you find it. I think Grubb will be back, he seems innovative and appears to think like a disruptor. Let him cut his teeth and keep at it. Now if there's some other things going on between him and others (maybe that's why he's up in the box) then maybe Grubb has some personal issues to work on too. Who knows... And Stay safe Keneth.
At this level, Grubb is a better fit elsewhere. MacD knows what he wants without excuses. Such is life given 90+ young men to train. Go make it happen, C'apn.
When you are forming up a band, don’t hire a guitar player to play fiddle.
I grew up playing fretted instruments, and played in a trio that got some gigs as a guitar player. If you handed me a fiddle and said “ok play THIS now” I would not have had a clue.
But it so happens that a fiddle came into my life and I have learned how to play it passably well.
So.
Grubb knows how to build a pass-based offense and knows the rhythm of the game from that perspective but he doesn’t know how to build a ground-game based offense. He can learn, and might even be great at it down the road!
The guys need someone down on the field injecting a command presence and control during the Game. Leave an assistant up in the crow's nest to identify weaknesses in real time. Let's see some sideline OL huddles scratching out adjustments in the dirt. Do we still have dirt in the stadium? If not, then truck it in...
MacD is building aggressive dominance in all phases. I have no doubt he knows exactly who he wants. I suspect our new OC is still in the running on a playoff team or we'd heard by now.
THIS from SSJ: "Anybody who the Seahawks hired last year would have to be a risk and Grubb at least appeared to fit Seattle’s personnel given what he had at UW with Michael Penix and 3 well-fed receivers."
Both Seattle Sports and Michael Shawn-Dugar from The Athletic aired precisely the same snippet from Grubb talking about learning on the job that in the NFL you cannot just target weak DBs or LBs. Ummm, yeah. Welcome to the NFL! MSD said that clip made him a little sick with the idea that Grubb wasn't acutely aware that the NFL is the best of the best, and therefore you're never going to have the same matchup discrepancies you get in college. And LOOK: Grubb should've seen exactly what happens to that dumpster-fire philosophy because he tried it one too many times when UDub got trounced by Michigan.
So even in the passing game, repeatedly, Seattle had the wrong scheme to play certain defenses. That's why you saw Geno stuck without an open receiver against Green Bay. And even the Giants. Those teams studied Seattle trying to pick on weaker players and playing a lot of zone. The result was that even when Geno had time, he had nowhere to send the ball.
As for Grubb being a "bad" hire, a lot of this comes back to what SSJ wrote about his radical plan to get Seattle to a franchise QB by trading chess pieces to amass a huge haul for the 2026 draft so they could move all those chips forward to move as high into the draft as feasible.
What that has to do with hiring Grubb is that decision was about timing and what options were left available. The answer: very few. SSJ is suggesting that Seattle must think harder about not being stuck there again in the future. So that means being strategic. If you want to get the franchise QB of the future, do all this dirty work ahead of time.
Likewise, if you want to be a defensive-first team, that means you have to be a ball-control team. Ideally you limit possessions for your opponent. That means Philly or Baltimore, or the BIlls. You grind down the field. Slowly and methodically. Watching Baltimore this season, you have a great template. And you don't have to have Lamar to do it.
Trading DK to Kansas City for their first round pick in 2026 seems to me selling DK for below market value, but if that is all his market value is then he has way more value to us as a player. SSJ correctly tells us that an extra year out is the equivalent of one round later. So the delayed first round pick for DK is seen as the same as a second round pick in 2025, but the actual pick is a going to be a very low first round pick so it's easily confused with only getting the equivalent of a third round pick for DK. Really? Personally, in terms of how he affects games, I would think he is worth at least a HIGH second round pick even in these days of diminished value for WR's.
Can DK be replaced even with a low first round pick? I doubt it. It's possible, but it sure isn't a guaranteed outcome, while DK is a known quality WR. We would need to immediately replace DK with our middle of the first round pick next year. Otherwise, we would find ourselves with just a single quality WR on the team. I can remember just a couple of years ago, fans were clamoring for a THIRD WR because no team could be great offensively with only two quality WR's. With Lockett falling off this year precipitously, we would need to replace our #1 WR and our #3 WR. to get back to where those fans thought we needed to be.
Many, and I find myself in this category, get frustrated with DK's penalties, fumbles, and drops. Fumbles I will throw out just because DK only fumbled once this year, and I think of it as an outlier that DK just needed a reminder about ball security. Penalties are passion penalties and immaturity penalties and DK like all people will grow out of his immaturity any year now. And then we would miss out on all those good years when he has matured into a force of nature with few downsides. I believe scientists have fixed the age of immaturity ending at 26, but some take a bit longer, certainly. Drops are getting fewer and fewer, but DK will never have Lockett's or Bobo's or JSN's hands, but I have seen improvement year over year over year and I expect that to continue.
Too often picks for players end up wasted.
I hope you get power soon and stay safe from the fires. Also that all in your area affected recover as quickly as possible.
Not a bad hire , just a philosophical disagreement. They did try to run but the OL was pushed back most of the time. What was he to do ? Remember how upset everyone was with Pc and the run run pass. ?
I put most of it on JS for years drafting guards and centers that are undersized ( Joey Hunt ) or physically weak.
Just a hard situation.
And Jalen Carter named to the players 2024 All Pro Team. No Williams. Sad
I hated the spoon pick over Carter. Pc is one coach to get through to guys. Spoon is OK. Just not a top pick and taken to early
I do not fully agree with you but yes I do get it. I’m fine either way but we’ve got Williams and Spoon vs just Carter. And Williams has better stats. Now what could we have had for the second rounder? Not sure but doubt better than Spoon and Williams. But I get it.
I just believe a team is best built from the trenches back.
Totally. I’m a MLB mentally (not physically (Mike Singletary intensity..)). Some of my favorite players are Jacob Green, Big Red (completely owned one whole side of field when PC moved him from middle to edge), Manu, etc. Big Walt, Bush, Hutch etc. completely agree.
That's a joke. By any objective measure, Leo was far and away the better, and most impactful player. It's not even close. Carter is good, no question. But Leo was dominant.
You know who we saw matters more than we knew? Byron Murphy II. Because without him Seattle was way less effective against the Rams and continued to over-pursue upfield. Garapolo threw to the left flat the entire game, with a convoy of blockers up front. Maybe this was the result of also being short on legit DBs (Prichett ain't ready for prime time), and being willing to let them dink and dunk, but it was painful to watch.
Murph was solid, no question. And you're right, the games he missed were some of the worst defensively for us. That last Rams game wasn't pretty to watch for our defense, for all kinds of reasons. It was probably Spoons worst game of the year.
Given what we knew at draft time, on the outside, I wouldn't have drafted Carter either. He'd just been involved in an auto accident in which friends died. He went to Philly where there was a friend from college on the DL, and it worked. I'm glad for him that it did, because it could as easily have gone the other way.
After Malik McDowell, there’s no way Schneider and Carroll were going near Carter, especially at #5.
PC really liked Bates. Had him at USC. Bates 20 years as a coach at various levels. TB SB as quality control. PC got rid of him because apparently while PC liked him as OC he was a dour person. PC wanted a lively culture and Bates wasn’t going to fit into that at the professional level.
Stay safe, SSJ and family 🙏
I really appreciate your dedication to your craft and your commitments SSJ, putting this out even with now power and the fires. I am glad you and SSJay are both safe.
As for the Grubb hire, I think it was risky bringing someone straight from the college ranks. College football (IMO) has degraded so far over the past 10-15 years. I loved watching college ball on Saturdays, but I can't stomach it any longer, barely watching any. It is like watching the Harlem Globetrotters play the Washington Generals except without the humor and entertainment. Most teams/conferences/games are all offense, little defense. It seems to me that the NFL struggles trying to find quality OL, QBs (of course that is long term problem anyway), etc. are a result of this - they aren't learning to play good, rounded football in college. So bringing the OC from those ranks seemed like a doomed experiment. Hoping for someone who has spent time in the pros, maybe someone off the radar, to be the next OC for the Hawks.
Seems the whole system is in a state of flux. Can we really expect quality players this year?
I think Grubb took the bullet for Geno and the Oline. May be ( probably ) he didn't turn to more of the running game because he knew that the line couldn't block a mannequin. How many times did the backs run for a loss, no gain or held under 3 yards? Will a new OC with the same Oline do any better?
The D got all the upgrades and Grubb got Tomlinson and a Center that retired mid season.
If the new guy doesn't get much better lineman, and a QB that isn't a turn over machine, good luck!
Hugh on KJR ripped into GS and JS. Listen to mondays podcast. Basically he said he was taken the short early completion to get the $$$
The interviews will be chock-full of ideas, but then I think MacD and JS already know who they want. Hey! Free stuff...
No I don't think he was a bad hire, and I'm not a fan of quick firings like this one. But there must have been a philosophical disagreement that Grubb and Coach Mac couldn't resolve.
My wish is for a new OC that has sustained and proven capabilities over time, rather than swinging for the fences to find the next hot shot. Not sure who that could be, hoping it's not Schottenheimer (🫣). Maybe Mike LaFleur (but why would he leave the Rams) or Doug Pederson? Curious as to who you'd have on your list SSJ (I imagine could be Kafka, but he didn't shower himself in glory this year although he clearly didn't have Seattle's weapons)
Grubb was probably a high risk, high reward type of hire. He was very successful and innovative in college and even here he showed flashes, thinking of his screen game particularly. His philosophy doesn’t appear to be a perfect fit with MM, but there is no way I’d call it a bad hire. As SSJ pointed out yesterday, the Hawks were 14th on offense which means top 1/2 of the league, not 32nd.
I’m just as suspicious that it was a bad firing as a bad hiring. But since MM calls the shots and is always on the hot seat as HC, I want him to have full confidence in his OC.
I knew that with the huge number of rookie coaches on last year’s team that there would be issues somewhere. I think ending 10-7 with both the offense and defense ranked 14th is actually pretty respectable considering the inexperience amongst the entire coaching staff. I would probably have given everyone a 2nd year, but I’m not in the daily meetings and this is what MM wanted and he should get it.
Plus anyone in fireland, stay safe!
Me too. Expected a Year 2. MacD is making a statement with this, as the 12s are growling, which upsets Jody. Gotta respect the structure they have set.
The Seahawks team is an NFL business. In business, unless you are President or CEO or a majority of the Board of Directors, you do as you are directed, especially with big decisions. If you don't like it, you can always resign and hopefully work elsewhere. Grubb was clearly told several times to call running plays more often. He didn't. Predictable result. I like the new regime, where accountability is not a buzzword.
I respect Grubb for sticking to what he thought would work. He'll be working somewhere else soon enough.
When you have 3 defensive-minded men in leadership and only 1 offensive-minded guy, who is also a rookie NFL coach (not 1st-time coordinator, 1st time coach of any kind), then this is what happens. Maybe they hire an offensive consultant who knows the game but doesn't want to be in the thick anymore, or we look for an OC who has flopped as an HC (as suggested by other commenters previously). JS put 75+% of coaching focus on defense and 25% (less the experience factor) into offense... and got shit offense and vastly improved defense. Maybe he should balance that out some. Sound familiar? Pay next to nothing on OL, GET next to nothing on OL. No, SJ, I am not saying you have to spend top-10 to get top-10, but spending bottom-10 on retreads isnt the answer.
Wondering aloud here... Josh McDaniels? Rumors of him going back to NE as OC again are out there, so it's worth kicking the tires. I like the idea of Mark Brunell coming on, but not as a stand-alone OC. He would need a consultant type. Maybe the recently fired Doug Pederson?
Nah...gotta take shots. Just surprised JS took so many shots at once. First time NFL HC, First time NFL oc, first time NFL special teams coach. Like many here suggested and agreed with, experience would be nice. I just don't know where you find it. I think Grubb will be back, he seems innovative and appears to think like a disruptor. Let him cut his teeth and keep at it. Now if there's some other things going on between him and others (maybe that's why he's up in the box) then maybe Grubb has some personal issues to work on too. Who knows... And Stay safe Keneth.
At this level, Grubb is a better fit elsewhere. MacD knows what he wants without excuses. Such is life given 90+ young men to train. Go make it happen, C'apn.
When you are forming up a band, don’t hire a guitar player to play fiddle.
I grew up playing fretted instruments, and played in a trio that got some gigs as a guitar player. If you handed me a fiddle and said “ok play THIS now” I would not have had a clue.
But it so happens that a fiddle came into my life and I have learned how to play it passably well.
So.
Grubb knows how to build a pass-based offense and knows the rhythm of the game from that perspective but he doesn’t know how to build a ground-game based offense. He can learn, and might even be great at it down the road!
But for MM’s band… not a fit now.
So can we call that Doug's string theory? (Because the whole fiddling and burning thing seems inappropriate...)
Ha! Yeah I am no Nero lol.
String theory? How about this—
https://youtu.be/jG6wvF_1g_o?si=iUMTIMliP9fJvwMB
Not what I was expecting, but well-played. That said, this is more of what I had in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TeifaBDaFE
Nice!
I have taken the discussion a bit further in this post:
https://open.substack.com/pub/dougflet/p/fiddles-and-strings?r=fjrpt&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
The guys need someone down on the field injecting a command presence and control during the Game. Leave an assistant up in the crow's nest to identify weaknesses in real time. Let's see some sideline OL huddles scratching out adjustments in the dirt. Do we still have dirt in the stadium? If not, then truck it in...
MacD is building aggressive dominance in all phases. I have no doubt he knows exactly who he wants. I suspect our new OC is still in the running on a playoff team or we'd heard by now.
Those sideline huddles were seen with Russ. When he was on the bench he was working his tablet and pumping up the players.
Great comment. A man that understands. 😊
HooAh.