I said it in the Penix article, but I’ll repeat it here. The Hawks need another OT like the Huskies have this year and a DL like Steve Emtman in college more than they need a QB in the first round. Either Geno or Drew could be a top ten QB with better line play. And the offense would benefit from a defense that occasionally stopped the other team on the first drive. Constantly playing from behind puts enormous stress on the whole team.
Signing Leonard Williams would be part of the answer, but just a start.
Eeeeeash ... This was just posted from Ben Baldwin (PFF pass block grade for O-line). Certainly, is not an exact science but by watching these games this looks reasonable to me.
The focus on Geno instead of an atrocious offensive line has amazed me. Terrible in the red zone - how about look at the offensive line. Teams know the Seahawks can’t run and don’t have to worry about being beaten over the top requiring a great play and great execution to score.. Terrible on third down - look at the pressure rate and penalties. Pete want's to run the ball as their identity but they throw the ball higher rate than the league average. Commitment to building a great offensive line - how about building an average one because right now the consensus is we have one of the worst lines in the NFL. With all that the Seahawks are still a top half offensive team. The problem isn’t the qb or the running backs - the problem is in front of those guys.
The Rams rebuilt their offensive line this year. They hit on a second rounder.
The Rams rebuilt their Offensive line this year. they hit on a second rounder, a little bit of this a little bit of that, open competition, A trade for a player that was almost a gift. they now have an OK to pretty good offensive line. my point being, it can be done with ingenuity and the right coaching. The Rams have showed it’s not that tough if you know what you’re doing
. Do the Seahawks know what they’re doing? I have my own opinion I am sure you have yours..
Using our first round pick (whatever it may be) on a OT would make a lot of sense. I'm more worried about Abe's long-term availability than I am Cross' development. I also think we need to give Lewis a second contract even if the price tag may shock fans a bit. I'm completely comfortable running it back with the current O-line, but need to add another OT with an early pick. I doubt Pete/John are willing to spend big money on a free agent OT, so keep an eye on the guys projected in the mid-first to early-second rounds.
You hit on the second most disappointing thing for me behind the defense. The two young tackles were so promising last year, but totally meh this year. A bad trajectory for sure that really hurt the team
Fun to go over this at the same week there was talk about Penix. You put Penix behind our OLine he's going to struggle. So why not fix the OLine? Well can you really fix it to a level of protection close to that UW provides, whilst also using your 1st on Penix? and addressing the Defensive issues?
Or do you look more at a QB who's been playing under more pressure and has shown to thrive when facing adversity on the field, like a Rattler. Then you can spread resources to make a better team.
I still think the bones of a strong OLine are there. Prioritise a tackle replacement for Lucas, as persistent injury beats out having a down year for priority. There will be Day 3 talent like Olu and Bradford available and that'll do to replace Haynes/Lewis and secure the interior for now.
Can anyone point to exactly why the defense is/has been so bad? Is it the scheme? If so does it make sense to move on from Hurtt? Is it the execution and/or communication by the players, not being where they're supposed to be? Again, that sounds like a coaching issue though it's hard to discern if it's a HC issue or DC issue. There's also the atrocious tackling -- KJ and others have mentioned that the Seahawks only get about 15 minutes per practice of tackling drills and they make it sound like it's more the theory of tackling they are practicing than actually tackling.
I feel it has been a theme for at least the last two years (but most likely longer) that if our defense was just average, ranking between 13-17, that we would have actually been a very good team with an offense good enough to win +/- 12 games. We've been at it near the bottom in some of the most critical areas: third down percentage on defense; red zone offense; penalties (especially at the worst times) on offense and defense; getting to third and manageable on offense and therefore being able to convert more third downs. They are great at 2 minute situations and Pete has said they drill that hard in practice so why not the other stuff? Sure it's good to be great in those situations but if they were great in the other 56 minutes of the game that would be amazing.
I also wonder why the highly experienced field leadership provided by Wags and Diggs also didn't produce better reads and shifts on a play by play basis.
Pssst: You actually attract more flies with shit than you do honey. If in doubt, head down to the San Francisco bee market. Truly, why would anyone want to attract flies, anyway? Just saying'...
I watched Purdy's entrance to the League perty close and saw guys like Kittle begin having fun. Made me ponder on how it is QBs can come in and start succeeding right away. Guys having a blast make more effort to maintain whatever is bringing this intangible 'It' factor. Kittle remarked, after Garoppolo went out, saying "Welcome to football, Dude!". It struck me as something everyone was thinking, but nobody was saying. Let's all admit we loved it when Wilson would bolt from the pile and toss a TD. Suffering a booboo today? Tough shit. Embrace the suck. Let's go. It's Go Time.
This is what I was looking for when Lock came in. The jury is still out, but I do know Geno never inspired over-the-top effort. I think this contributes to why we haven't seen Blue Chip performances this year. Unlock that and much of our concerns go away. I think it is why Pete is so focused on cheerleading. DK seems to get it and is playing like a Leader should. So shake it off, Hawks. Let's go out and see what we might do next season. There's still a Win-Win to be had.
Actually, actually it's shit from someone only being fed honey as scaphism (or "the boats") has taught us.
Also, those times when Wilson was swallowed by the opposing d-line only to somehow pop out and complete a pass were amazing. I'm gonna go watch Russell Wilson highlights now
At the heart of Seattles offensive inconsistency has been offensive line play. I cannot think of a game where Seattles offensive line dominated, and in way too many games they got dominated. I felt like maybe they had turned a corner after the Philadelphia game but the explanation appears to be Philadelphia’s fall off rather than Seattle rising.
The defensive was better than last year but not good. They get sacks but are lower half in pressures. They often loose gap control and Sunday they got bullied.
Gotta be careful using sacks, as we have stat padded those Vs the Giants and some other games where sacks game and made no difference.
Honestly our OLine has given up less sacks than I was expecting when I went to look it up. Yes could be better but for the ad-hoc unit they've just about held. Similar on pressure rates and clean pocket time. The OLine has been relatively average, certainly not bad. It is in the run game it's been worse for sure, failing to make gaps or assert power.
Jason Peters entered the league as a jumbo tight end. He had rough seasons after moving to the offensive line, and his play improved, he had a long career, won a Super Bowl, and played at a high level for almost two decades. He's considered a lock to the Hall of Fame.
I don't see many tackles making people gasp in awe in their first three seasons. If you look at any measure of offensive line play (charted like SIS or ESPN, or eye test like PFF), you see that most of them slowly improved, reaching a peak / plateau year 5 or 6, and stay there for a few years more if their health allows.
It's a mix of tenure and age. Older tackles (like Lucas) get it right sooner. Younger guys like Cross take longer. But when you talk about the best offensive linemen in the league, you're usually talking about guys in their early to mid thirties. And this is even truer for tackles than for interior linemen.
Giving up too early has its costs. Ethan Pocic has been a solid center for the Bengals. Ifedi, on the other hand, good riddance! Mark Glowinski is a backup for the worst offensive line in the league (worse than our makeshift set of Forsythe / Haynes / Brown / Bradford / Curhan).
Lots of words to say that Cross has his ups and downs, and he's still the best tackle in his draft class. As you said, finding a left tackle is hard, and you have to pay the price to develop one, which are his growing pains. We are rebuilding, aren't we?
By the way, ESPN has Cross as the 7th best run block win rate among tackles.
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Damien Lewis is a really good guard. He's not Quenton Nelson, he's not exceptional at anything, but he's a rare specimen that is really good at both pass protecting and run blocking. Phil Haynes is similar, but he lacks the best ability (availability). It's sad, Haynes has a lot of talent, but can't stay healthy.
Anthony Bradford has been good run blocking, and he has sucked less pass protecting. Still bad, but par for the course of a 4th round rookie.
I think your evaluation of the talent in our offensive line is greatly impaired by the circumstances of the team this season. There's talent and reason for hope. There's also need for better depth and insurance against Lucas having a short career.
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Your cheap shot at Corbin Smith is uncalled for. Bobby Wagner has been excellent against the run, but he's only one. His age took his agility, so he's a liability in coverage, and Corbin will be the first to agree with that (I think he said that himself multiple times), but he's impactful in the run game, that's undeniable, and what's he's affirming. Just sad.
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I wish we had a more Genos (Genoes?). Above average play for average pay? That's exactly what you're complaining the Seahawks don't have. Whom else out of a rookie contract we can say that of? Maybe Jarran Reed.
Tying both things, whenever Geno had Cross at left tackle and either Lucas or Peters at right tackle, his numbers are stellar. If you take the week 13-17 slice (Dallas loss, SF loss, Eagles win, Titans win, Pittsburgh win), which are the 5 games Lucas started, you will see our offense at 4th place in EPA/play and EPA/dropback. In this period, Geno had the best EPA/play of any QB taking at least 60 snaps (Lock was 12th). It's a small sample size and you can discount (especially for Geno) the Philly and Titans defenses. But any week that Geno had two competent tackles (Cross and either Lucas or Peters), he posted top-10 efficiency numbers.
You ask for sincerity, here's mine: terrible take, emotional punditry, disrespectful to a professional, just a bad article from top to bottom.
“I don't see many tackles making people gasp in awe in their first three seasons.”
Walter Jones. Which is the problem--he inadvertently set wildly high expectations for anyone who followed him. To hear some fans, Russell Okung was worse than Bradley Sowell when here on planet earth he was a very capable player. Cross is still dealing with turf toe; personally, I think it says a lot about him that he’s answered the bell every Sunday for thirteen weeks in a row.
SSJ is putting many thoughts and ideas out there based on opinion, what is observed and stats. Calling out apparent faults is not disrespect, it’s the result of those three things above. Fair comments especially because they are professionals and expected to perform as such.
I don’t think there’s any need to be offended by what SSJ has put up here. He’s asking questions and looking for answers. The way I see it, he’s not saying he’s right or wrong, he’s just putting it out there for consideration. What’s to say your opinions are any better?
If you don’t like the questions, and revert to name calling, then maybe this Substack isn’t for you? Just sayin’
I presented a dozen paragraphs of respectful counterpoints.
I called him out for deeming Corbin Smith a hack (who says nice things to attract "flies" and dismisses who doesn't follow him on Twitter), and using Geno Smith as a shorthand for mediocre (even if saying he's mediocre would be a reasonable point, one which I would disagree, like I did with his assessment of our offensive line, while agreeing that there should be a contingency plan for Lucas not making it back).
I respect Kenneth, and that's why I took time to write my points and challenge him.
I guess our definitions of ‘respectful’ are somewhat different. However, I didn’t respond to have an argument or because I disagreed with your opinions (you actually made some good points). I responded in defence of SSJ’s incredible hard work and effort to supply us all with this fabulous Seahawks content for very little in return. He doesn’t deserve to be called “greatly impaired” or accusing him of having a “terrible take, and emotional punditry”, and calling it a “bad article from top to bottom”. That’s what I call disrespect.
IMO SSJ is one of the most respectful people on the internet and his takes are obviously considered and fair. That doesn’t mean we have to agree with him, but it should encourage respectful dialogue if one wants to respond.
I enjoy reading everyone’s takes on this site Luis, including yours. We just need to be mindful of how we present them sometimes.
The concept of presenting one’s point of view in counterpoint to another’s is something Luis doesn’t understand. He can’t state his opinions unless he insults the opinions of others first, which only accomplishes turning a conversation into an argument. It’s really a personal problem that has its foundation in brawn over brain. Who wants to engage with that? He thinks he wins.
I don’t think you are new here. How many times do you have to be told this is supposed to be a safe space for people to share their thoughts and opinions because we all understand none of us are experts?! If you are tired of reading other people’s differing opinions there’s one obvious answer to relieve yourself of that strife.
I'm not tired of seeing different opinions, I love them. I regularly read Staton, JPG, Mookie, and Kenneth, guys who I more often than not disagree with. I love being challenged and changed my opinions quite a bit.
But if someone says "I hate the Wolf Gray uniforms, why they keep using them?", that's not a thought or an opinion (well, the first part is an opinion that I agree with), it's a falsehood (the Seahawks had to retire the Wolf Gray uniforms to wear the Throwbacks).
You seem pretty emotional yourself. In one comment you bemoan talking poorly to a “professional” then talk down to a fellow paying member of the community.
I’m kinda tired of seeing people complaining about bogus things (“it’s the 3-4 scheme!” Is my favorite, but “Geno takes too many sacks” is especially ironic).
Much more honest to say: Seahawks lost, I’m frustrated, I wanted my team to win, and I didn’t get it, so I want Ivan the Terrible (or Pete / Geno / Adams / Hurtt / Waldron / DK) out.
Not what happened here, Robert committed a honest mistake. Again, I apologize.
Both healthy, I suspect Lucas is a better OT than Cross, but we may never know. What we know now, though, is that Cross is not playing like a second year top ten tackle, and Lucas hasn't played much at all because he has an apparently inoperable knee that seems likely to limit his career.
Not the kind of building blocks we thought we were getting....
I thought, coming into the season, that the progress of Lucas and Cross, the two potential franchise tackles, was the most important aspect of this season. The year these guys have had is bad news for the rebuild.
It's not over, the turf toe could still be affecting Cross' play this year and could heal in the offseason. And Lucas could come back... But these two guys being franchise cornerstones is less likely today than it was a year ago. Which sucks.
I also listened to a podcast recently that talked about the lack of investment in both lines. If there is one way, I would build a team it is through the trenches. That to me is what made the 2022 draft exciting with 2 offensive linemen picked in the first 3 rounds. The last draft? Not til round 4. Ugh.
What about the O line coach? Is that just as crucial as as an “innovative” DC or OC? Do those even exist? Where do we place the blame for the struggles of our o-line? Comments here don’t seem to exclusively point to health as the problem. We have invested, which = development which = coaching.
I will reiterate my desire to get Tom Cable back (if he wants to). He was the best OL coach we have had and, by all acoounts I've seen, has been one of the best in the NFL for years.
He will probably get another year because of how many rotations we went into positing that anyone would have had a challenge. I don’t know, If the trenches is where games are won, isn’t that in fact a very important positional coaching role? I’m not saying he deserves one outcome over the other, I’m just asking about his value to the organization
It is possible to have invested more draft capital with less return (see, Giants). The Seahawks have done ok with the draft picks, and as you say Cross may be better next year (at least at the start). Lucas, too. We'll see.
You can follow a perfect plan and still get bad results. The fact that the Giants almost certainly need to draft a tackle in the top-10 again this year, even after Andrew Thomas proved to be very good, just shows the vulnerability and variability of the big men.
I keep looking at the Dolphins, constructed almost exactly to an NFL fan's dream (OC hire at HC, top-10 pick at QB, traded for Tyreek, Jalen, Chubb, signed Terron Armstead, hired Fangio at DC) and where will it get them? I mean, the season isn't over but most are expecting an early exit and a loss to the Bills this week. Maybe they win the Super Bowl. But the Dolphins could also do everything a fan dreams of and get knocked out in the first round and then come back next year and be 6-11.
I never thought their plan for the OL was that good. James Carpenter was the harbinger: JSPC like his measurables etc and never consider that his game might not ever be right for their scheme no matter how they coach him up. He leaves in free agency and has nice run with the better-fit Jets and Falcons, while Carroll and Tom Cable get obsessed with developing the likes of JR Sweezy (that he was actually okay may have been bad for the long-term prospects of the OL) and Kristjan Sokoli, convince themselves that they are the ones to turn Luke Joeckel’s career around, and completely miss that Mark Glowinski is turning into a good player.
Oh yeah ... I think Cross and Lucas were great picks! Especially Lucas. If they don't work out because of injury - that is unlucky and out of our control.
With as promising as their rookie seasons were, it's fair that we all assumed a potentially top-5 OL in 2023. With another year of information at our disposal, hopefully the Seahawks are worst skeptical and willing to double down because it's one of the worst problems a team could have.
Just about every team wants a better OL, but teams *do* overcome unexceptional groups. We get gauzy-eyed about the 2013 team and forget it was the OL, not the wide receivers, that was pedestrian or worse. Alvin Bailey reported tackle eligible a *lot*, and not only on passing downs. Carroll was never able to leverage Zach Miller’s considerable receiving skills because Miller had to be regularly deployed as a sixth offensive lineman.
Here’s the key block from Bailey that sprung Marshawn Lynch for a long TD run at beginning of the second half, 2013 NFC finals:
I think its HawkMan who is a member here and myself have been talking about the trenches for most of the year.
Exepcially after the Ravens game which was a stark reminder that football has always been and still is about the trenches. All the other stuff is secondary.
Agree completely. How many times do we say "it's all about the trenches." Watching the Seahawks fall completely apart in the first game after both Lucas and Cross went down was hugely deflating, in part because we hoped they were both able to handle a full workload (although Lucas did miss a few games in 22) and in part because the backups were not ready/scheme was not ready to adapt to injuries.
Olu Olu at C, Brown at G, Bradford at G, Cross, Lucas, with Forsyth (who I was very down on but actually has done ok as a fill-in at RT), a high-potential G or T depending how the draft board falls, and another serviceable vet who can be a swing T/G is the best we can probably do next year, because we also need another quality DT.
Yeah I normally prefer and post up the original artist version of recordings but Jennifer Warnes' version is just sooooo good, even of this song which is also on the Famous Blue Raincoat album.
And when you are a true Seahawks fan, it is so true... :D
I said it in the Penix article, but I’ll repeat it here. The Hawks need another OT like the Huskies have this year and a DL like Steve Emtman in college more than they need a QB in the first round. Either Geno or Drew could be a top ten QB with better line play. And the offense would benefit from a defense that occasionally stopped the other team on the first drive. Constantly playing from behind puts enormous stress on the whole team.
Signing Leonard Williams would be part of the answer, but just a start.
Eeeeeash ... This was just posted from Ben Baldwin (PFF pass block grade for O-line). Certainly, is not an exact science but by watching these games this looks reasonable to me.
https://x.com/benbbaldwin/status/1743354348183146938?s=20
Geno has just been incredible. As the offense has been doing great in spite of the line:
https://x.com/benbbaldwin/status/1742602965859360844?s=20
I remember when some Seahawks fans were telling me Sam Howell is better than Geno Smith. Yikes.
The focus on Geno instead of an atrocious offensive line has amazed me. Terrible in the red zone - how about look at the offensive line. Teams know the Seahawks can’t run and don’t have to worry about being beaten over the top requiring a great play and great execution to score.. Terrible on third down - look at the pressure rate and penalties. Pete want's to run the ball as their identity but they throw the ball higher rate than the league average. Commitment to building a great offensive line - how about building an average one because right now the consensus is we have one of the worst lines in the NFL. With all that the Seahawks are still a top half offensive team. The problem isn’t the qb or the running backs - the problem is in front of those guys.
Agree with this comment from top to bottom.
I don't think there is anything I can add ... That pretty much nails it. So many good points in there.
Exactly, let's get an average offensive line and an average defense. Then let's see how far Geno, the WRs, and K9 etc can go.
The Rams rebuilt their offensive line this year. They hit on a second rounder.
The Rams rebuilt their Offensive line this year. they hit on a second rounder, a little bit of this a little bit of that, open competition, A trade for a player that was almost a gift. they now have an OK to pretty good offensive line. my point being, it can be done with ingenuity and the right coaching. The Rams have showed it’s not that tough if you know what you’re doing
. Do the Seahawks know what they’re doing? I have my own opinion I am sure you have yours..
Using our first round pick (whatever it may be) on a OT would make a lot of sense. I'm more worried about Abe's long-term availability than I am Cross' development. I also think we need to give Lewis a second contract even if the price tag may shock fans a bit. I'm completely comfortable running it back with the current O-line, but need to add another OT with an early pick. I doubt Pete/John are willing to spend big money on a free agent OT, so keep an eye on the guys projected in the mid-first to early-second rounds.
You hit on the second most disappointing thing for me behind the defense. The two young tackles were so promising last year, but totally meh this year. A bad trajectory for sure that really hurt the team
Fun to go over this at the same week there was talk about Penix. You put Penix behind our OLine he's going to struggle. So why not fix the OLine? Well can you really fix it to a level of protection close to that UW provides, whilst also using your 1st on Penix? and addressing the Defensive issues?
Or do you look more at a QB who's been playing under more pressure and has shown to thrive when facing adversity on the field, like a Rattler. Then you can spread resources to make a better team.
I still think the bones of a strong OLine are there. Prioritise a tackle replacement for Lucas, as persistent injury beats out having a down year for priority. There will be Day 3 talent like Olu and Bradford available and that'll do to replace Haynes/Lewis and secure the interior for now.
Can anyone point to exactly why the defense is/has been so bad? Is it the scheme? If so does it make sense to move on from Hurtt? Is it the execution and/or communication by the players, not being where they're supposed to be? Again, that sounds like a coaching issue though it's hard to discern if it's a HC issue or DC issue. There's also the atrocious tackling -- KJ and others have mentioned that the Seahawks only get about 15 minutes per practice of tackling drills and they make it sound like it's more the theory of tackling they are practicing than actually tackling.
I feel it has been a theme for at least the last two years (but most likely longer) that if our defense was just average, ranking between 13-17, that we would have actually been a very good team with an offense good enough to win +/- 12 games. We've been at it near the bottom in some of the most critical areas: third down percentage on defense; red zone offense; penalties (especially at the worst times) on offense and defense; getting to third and manageable on offense and therefore being able to convert more third downs. They are great at 2 minute situations and Pete has said they drill that hard in practice so why not the other stuff? Sure it's good to be great in those situations but if they were great in the other 56 minutes of the game that would be amazing.
I also wonder why the highly experienced field leadership provided by Wags and Diggs also didn't produce better reads and shifts on a play by play basis.
That's also a good point!
Pssst: You actually attract more flies with shit than you do honey. If in doubt, head down to the San Francisco bee market. Truly, why would anyone want to attract flies, anyway? Just saying'...
I watched Purdy's entrance to the League perty close and saw guys like Kittle begin having fun. Made me ponder on how it is QBs can come in and start succeeding right away. Guys having a blast make more effort to maintain whatever is bringing this intangible 'It' factor. Kittle remarked, after Garoppolo went out, saying "Welcome to football, Dude!". It struck me as something everyone was thinking, but nobody was saying. Let's all admit we loved it when Wilson would bolt from the pile and toss a TD. Suffering a booboo today? Tough shit. Embrace the suck. Let's go. It's Go Time.
This is what I was looking for when Lock came in. The jury is still out, but I do know Geno never inspired over-the-top effort. I think this contributes to why we haven't seen Blue Chip performances this year. Unlock that and much of our concerns go away. I think it is why Pete is so focused on cheerleading. DK seems to get it and is playing like a Leader should. So shake it off, Hawks. Let's go out and see what we might do next season. There's still a Win-Win to be had.
Actually, actually it's shit from someone only being fed honey as scaphism (or "the boats") has taught us.
Also, those times when Wilson was swallowed by the opposing d-line only to somehow pop out and complete a pass were amazing. I'm gonna go watch Russell Wilson highlights now
Ubetcha. I'm with you...
At the heart of Seattles offensive inconsistency has been offensive line play. I cannot think of a game where Seattles offensive line dominated, and in way too many games they got dominated. I felt like maybe they had turned a corner after the Philadelphia game but the explanation appears to be Philadelphia’s fall off rather than Seattle rising.
The defensive was better than last year but not good. They get sacks but are lower half in pressures. They often loose gap control and Sunday they got bullied.
Gotta be careful using sacks, as we have stat padded those Vs the Giants and some other games where sacks game and made no difference.
Honestly our OLine has given up less sacks than I was expecting when I went to look it up. Yes could be better but for the ad-hoc unit they've just about held. Similar on pressure rates and clean pocket time. The OLine has been relatively average, certainly not bad. It is in the run game it's been worse for sure, failing to make gaps or assert power.
Jason Peters entered the league as a jumbo tight end. He had rough seasons after moving to the offensive line, and his play improved, he had a long career, won a Super Bowl, and played at a high level for almost two decades. He's considered a lock to the Hall of Fame.
I don't see many tackles making people gasp in awe in their first three seasons. If you look at any measure of offensive line play (charted like SIS or ESPN, or eye test like PFF), you see that most of them slowly improved, reaching a peak / plateau year 5 or 6, and stay there for a few years more if their health allows.
It's a mix of tenure and age. Older tackles (like Lucas) get it right sooner. Younger guys like Cross take longer. But when you talk about the best offensive linemen in the league, you're usually talking about guys in their early to mid thirties. And this is even truer for tackles than for interior linemen.
Giving up too early has its costs. Ethan Pocic has been a solid center for the Bengals. Ifedi, on the other hand, good riddance! Mark Glowinski is a backup for the worst offensive line in the league (worse than our makeshift set of Forsythe / Haynes / Brown / Bradford / Curhan).
Lots of words to say that Cross has his ups and downs, and he's still the best tackle in his draft class. As you said, finding a left tackle is hard, and you have to pay the price to develop one, which are his growing pains. We are rebuilding, aren't we?
By the way, ESPN has Cross as the 7th best run block win rate among tackles.
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Damien Lewis is a really good guard. He's not Quenton Nelson, he's not exceptional at anything, but he's a rare specimen that is really good at both pass protecting and run blocking. Phil Haynes is similar, but he lacks the best ability (availability). It's sad, Haynes has a lot of talent, but can't stay healthy.
Anthony Bradford has been good run blocking, and he has sucked less pass protecting. Still bad, but par for the course of a 4th round rookie.
I think your evaluation of the talent in our offensive line is greatly impaired by the circumstances of the team this season. There's talent and reason for hope. There's also need for better depth and insurance against Lucas having a short career.
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Your cheap shot at Corbin Smith is uncalled for. Bobby Wagner has been excellent against the run, but he's only one. His age took his agility, so he's a liability in coverage, and Corbin will be the first to agree with that (I think he said that himself multiple times), but he's impactful in the run game, that's undeniable, and what's he's affirming. Just sad.
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I wish we had a more Genos (Genoes?). Above average play for average pay? That's exactly what you're complaining the Seahawks don't have. Whom else out of a rookie contract we can say that of? Maybe Jarran Reed.
Tying both things, whenever Geno had Cross at left tackle and either Lucas or Peters at right tackle, his numbers are stellar. If you take the week 13-17 slice (Dallas loss, SF loss, Eagles win, Titans win, Pittsburgh win), which are the 5 games Lucas started, you will see our offense at 4th place in EPA/play and EPA/dropback. In this period, Geno had the best EPA/play of any QB taking at least 60 snaps (Lock was 12th). It's a small sample size and you can discount (especially for Geno) the Philly and Titans defenses. But any week that Geno had two competent tackles (Cross and either Lucas or Peters), he posted top-10 efficiency numbers.
You ask for sincerity, here's mine: terrible take, emotional punditry, disrespectful to a professional, just a bad article from top to bottom.
Yikes!
There are some really good points in this comment.
Cool you took the time to lay them out.
“I don't see many tackles making people gasp in awe in their first three seasons.”
Walter Jones. Which is the problem--he inadvertently set wildly high expectations for anyone who followed him. To hear some fans, Russell Okung was worse than Bradley Sowell when here on planet earth he was a very capable player. Cross is still dealing with turf toe; personally, I think it says a lot about him that he’s answered the bell every Sunday for thirteen weeks in a row.
Wow! Who’s being disrespectful here?
SSJ is putting many thoughts and ideas out there based on opinion, what is observed and stats. Calling out apparent faults is not disrespect, it’s the result of those three things above. Fair comments especially because they are professionals and expected to perform as such.
I don’t think there’s any need to be offended by what SSJ has put up here. He’s asking questions and looking for answers. The way I see it, he’s not saying he’s right or wrong, he’s just putting it out there for consideration. What’s to say your opinions are any better?
If you don’t like the questions, and revert to name calling, then maybe this Substack isn’t for you? Just sayin’
I presented a dozen paragraphs of respectful counterpoints.
I called him out for deeming Corbin Smith a hack (who says nice things to attract "flies" and dismisses who doesn't follow him on Twitter), and using Geno Smith as a shorthand for mediocre (even if saying he's mediocre would be a reasonable point, one which I would disagree, like I did with his assessment of our offensive line, while agreeing that there should be a contingency plan for Lucas not making it back).
I respect Kenneth, and that's why I took time to write my points and challenge him.
I guess our definitions of ‘respectful’ are somewhat different. However, I didn’t respond to have an argument or because I disagreed with your opinions (you actually made some good points). I responded in defence of SSJ’s incredible hard work and effort to supply us all with this fabulous Seahawks content for very little in return. He doesn’t deserve to be called “greatly impaired” or accusing him of having a “terrible take, and emotional punditry”, and calling it a “bad article from top to bottom”. That’s what I call disrespect.
IMO SSJ is one of the most respectful people on the internet and his takes are obviously considered and fair. That doesn’t mean we have to agree with him, but it should encourage respectful dialogue if one wants to respond.
I enjoy reading everyone’s takes on this site Luis, including yours. We just need to be mindful of how we present them sometimes.
The concept of presenting one’s point of view in counterpoint to another’s is something Luis doesn’t understand. He can’t state his opinions unless he insults the opinions of others first, which only accomplishes turning a conversation into an argument. It’s really a personal problem that has its foundation in brawn over brain. Who wants to engage with that? He thinks he wins.
I am an O line obsessive and have shown that here a few times. And like all obsessives, I worry.
Cross: A mystery that needs solving.
Lucas: Inoperable condition? Arthritis? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Brown: Is he too average to mediocre at center? Is his versatility worth keeping?
Olu: Reliably enough of an upgrade from Brown?
Lewis: IDK. But losing him seems to invite too much change.
Bradford: A true mauler? Can he pass defend well enough?
Forsythe: A 6'7" question mark.
Haynes: Bye bye, thanks for trying!
Curhan: Not enough upside?
Mone: Health?
Mone is a defensive lineman, and I think an "O line obsessive" should know that.
I don’t think you are new here. How many times do you have to be told this is supposed to be a safe space for people to share their thoughts and opinions because we all understand none of us are experts?! If you are tired of reading other people’s differing opinions there’s one obvious answer to relieve yourself of that strife.
I apologized below. I do it again.
I'm not tired of seeing different opinions, I love them. I regularly read Staton, JPG, Mookie, and Kenneth, guys who I more often than not disagree with. I love being challenged and changed my opinions quite a bit.
But if someone says "I hate the Wolf Gray uniforms, why they keep using them?", that's not a thought or an opinion (well, the first part is an opinion that I agree with), it's a falsehood (the Seahawks had to retire the Wolf Gray uniforms to wear the Throwbacks).
You seem pretty emotional yourself. In one comment you bemoan talking poorly to a “professional” then talk down to a fellow paying member of the community.
Get off the high horse.
Sorry.
I’m kinda tired of seeing people complaining about bogus things (“it’s the 3-4 scheme!” Is my favorite, but “Geno takes too many sacks” is especially ironic).
Much more honest to say: Seahawks lost, I’m frustrated, I wanted my team to win, and I didn’t get it, so I want Ivan the Terrible (or Pete / Geno / Adams / Hurtt / Waldron / DK) out.
Not what happened here, Robert committed a honest mistake. Again, I apologize.
It happens. The power of an apology is quite a thing. I commend you for doing so.
Let’s keep this a place to get away from our daily minutiae.
Everybody has a bad day, now and then.
Yeah he was a tad harsh. My brain was too focused on injured Hawks. I make more mental errors at age 70 but not yet in matters of real import.
He was rude and belittling. Safe to say I’m not a fan.
I’ve very seldom commented here. But I’ve seen your comments, and have enjoyed them.
Oops sorry
Both healthy, I suspect Lucas is a better OT than Cross, but we may never know. What we know now, though, is that Cross is not playing like a second year top ten tackle, and Lucas hasn't played much at all because he has an apparently inoperable knee that seems likely to limit his career.
Not the kind of building blocks we thought we were getting....
I thought, coming into the season, that the progress of Lucas and Cross, the two potential franchise tackles, was the most important aspect of this season. The year these guys have had is bad news for the rebuild.
It's not over, the turf toe could still be affecting Cross' play this year and could heal in the offseason. And Lucas could come back... But these two guys being franchise cornerstones is less likely today than it was a year ago. Which sucks.
I also listened to a podcast recently that talked about the lack of investment in both lines. If there is one way, I would build a team it is through the trenches. That to me is what made the 2022 draft exciting with 2 offensive linemen picked in the first 3 rounds. The last draft? Not til round 4. Ugh.
What about the O line coach? Is that just as crucial as as an “innovative” DC or OC? Do those even exist? Where do we place the blame for the struggles of our o-line? Comments here don’t seem to exclusively point to health as the problem. We have invested, which = development which = coaching.
If it were up to me ... I would invest more into the line.
I really liked the Cross and Lucas picks. As Luis points out above - these guys just may take a little more time (injuries unlucky).
Damien Lewis is a third rounder and Bradford a 4th. Helped by a veteran center.
I think I’m ok with the direction but would like to add rook(ies) for depth and competition.
It’s interesting because Andy Dickerson was getting a lot of positive talk especially after the Detroit game for much of the season.
I don’t know if coaching is part of the problem but I think it’s fair to ask the question.
I will reiterate my desire to get Tom Cable back (if he wants to). He was the best OL coach we have had and, by all acoounts I've seen, has been one of the best in the NFL for years.
He will probably get another year because of how many rotations we went into positing that anyone would have had a challenge. I don’t know, If the trenches is where games are won, isn’t that in fact a very important positional coaching role? I’m not saying he deserves one outcome over the other, I’m just asking about his value to the organization
It is possible to have invested more draft capital with less return (see, Giants). The Seahawks have done ok with the draft picks, and as you say Cross may be better next year (at least at the start). Lucas, too. We'll see.
You can follow a perfect plan and still get bad results. The fact that the Giants almost certainly need to draft a tackle in the top-10 again this year, even after Andrew Thomas proved to be very good, just shows the vulnerability and variability of the big men.
I keep looking at the Dolphins, constructed almost exactly to an NFL fan's dream (OC hire at HC, top-10 pick at QB, traded for Tyreek, Jalen, Chubb, signed Terron Armstead, hired Fangio at DC) and where will it get them? I mean, the season isn't over but most are expecting an early exit and a loss to the Bills this week. Maybe they win the Super Bowl. But the Dolphins could also do everything a fan dreams of and get knocked out in the first round and then come back next year and be 6-11.
But ya gotta keep trying!
I never thought their plan for the OL was that good. James Carpenter was the harbinger: JSPC like his measurables etc and never consider that his game might not ever be right for their scheme no matter how they coach him up. He leaves in free agency and has nice run with the better-fit Jets and Falcons, while Carroll and Tom Cable get obsessed with developing the likes of JR Sweezy (that he was actually okay may have been bad for the long-term prospects of the OL) and Kristjan Sokoli, convince themselves that they are the ones to turn Luke Joeckel’s career around, and completely miss that Mark Glowinski is turning into a good player.
I'm thinkin' that if you actually followed the plan and got bad results then the plan probably wasn't perfect.
Oh yeah ... I think Cross and Lucas were great picks! Especially Lucas. If they don't work out because of injury - that is unlucky and out of our control.
And theirs and PCJS’s.
With as promising as their rookie seasons were, it's fair that we all assumed a potentially top-5 OL in 2023. With another year of information at our disposal, hopefully the Seahawks are worst skeptical and willing to double down because it's one of the worst problems a team could have.
I forgot about the turf toe.
Just about every team wants a better OL, but teams *do* overcome unexceptional groups. We get gauzy-eyed about the 2013 team and forget it was the OL, not the wide receivers, that was pedestrian or worse. Alvin Bailey reported tackle eligible a *lot*, and not only on passing downs. Carroll was never able to leverage Zach Miller’s considerable receiving skills because Miller had to be regularly deployed as a sixth offensive lineman.
Here’s the key block from Bailey that sprung Marshawn Lynch for a long TD run at beginning of the second half, 2013 NFC finals:
https://youtu.be/hooUzk1NHzE?si=N91S46IIfi6yw3ir
I think its HawkMan who is a member here and myself have been talking about the trenches for most of the year.
Exepcially after the Ravens game which was a stark reminder that football has always been and still is about the trenches. All the other stuff is secondary.
Agree completely. How many times do we say "it's all about the trenches." Watching the Seahawks fall completely apart in the first game after both Lucas and Cross went down was hugely deflating, in part because we hoped they were both able to handle a full workload (although Lucas did miss a few games in 22) and in part because the backups were not ready/scheme was not ready to adapt to injuries.
Olu Olu at C, Brown at G, Bradford at G, Cross, Lucas, with Forsyth (who I was very down on but actually has done ok as a fill-in at RT), a high-potential G or T depending how the draft board falls, and another serviceable vet who can be a swing T/G is the best we can probably do next year, because we also need another quality DT.
Trenches!
It almost feels like we need a Famous Blue (and Green) Trench (Rain) Coat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPlpxHhzSp0
In the end, though, there ain’t no cure for love!
https://youtu.be/jr8fdHbgAuw?si=AL4IbPuwgnYk0bcw
Yeah I normally prefer and post up the original artist version of recordings but Jennifer Warnes' version is just sooooo good, even of this song which is also on the Famous Blue Raincoat album.
And when you are a true Seahawks fan, it is so true... :D