I agree that Geno is under center way too few times per game. Play action is crucial to giving the line a better chance to give Geno time, and i think it will open things up for Walker too. If the LBs see the run coming out of shotgun, the blocks must be on point or the run goes no where. it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to try operating from under center a little more at this point to see if it helps to correct the problems.
The Lions starting OL has four first-round draft choices and one third-rounder. The Eagles have two first-rounders and two second rounders. Crucially, they are all good players (no John Moffitts or Justin Britts).
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that these lines don’t much care whether their QB is under center or in shotgun. In other words, the Hawks have to fix the Schneider problem first.
I really enjoyed listening to Bryce Coutts clip. He is exactly right and makes great points about when a right-handed QB gets pressure from his right, he needs to ground it or take a sack or try to run. Geno Smith cannot make that turnover at that moment.
The Barner interception opinion is a bit more flimsy but makes good points also. However, Will Rogers is not a good QB and has not done much with the Huskies. Maybe Geno should have grounded it? I don't know.
What I do know ... is that Coutts sounds very conservative. If we want Geno to play like this our offense wouldn't move the ball at all. Geno got pressured on 60% of his drop backs. So 3 out of 5 drop backs you want Geno to take a sack or throw the ball away? Huh? Due to the offensive line situation, Geno has to take some of these risks on. In this game alone you saw him make big time throws, off center, with rushers all around him. The end of the first half TD to JSN being the best example. If Coutts wants to (rightfully) criticize his decision to try and make a play in the end zone that was too much risk, he should also criticize ten other decisions that resulted in TDs or explosive plays because when you are Geno Smith, almost every play you are going to have pressure.
Furthermore, Geno Smith has one of the lowest Turnover Worthy Plays % in the NFL. He only has 10 TWPs and somehow has 10 interceptions. That is not a QB (not even including the pressures) making bad decisions that is a QB getting unlucky. Like throwing a dime to JSN and having him volleyball in the air to get picked off. What is Geno supposed to do? Not throw the ball to an open WR?
Overall, really enjoyed Coutts' opinion and he knows ball, but I don't think he is giving enough consideration to Geno's situation and then extrapolating a conclusion that goes against what we have seen. Just my two cents
Lastly, (great topic) in this same game we saw Stafford make essentially the same decision.
3rd Quarter 2:24 to play first and 10 from the Hawks 14-yard line. He double pumps fading to the left in the pocket then gets pressure from his right side and still makes the throw to the back of the end zone. Woolen would've picked it but he was interfered with (not called).
Obviously, Geno's arm got hit more so the ball came up shorter but these are the milliseconds we are talking about here. I wonder if Coutts would consider Stafford's decision to throw the ball equally as bad as Geno's? Safford is a SB winning QB and a hall of famer. The point being, guys like Stafford, Favre, Josh Allen on down the line of QBs make these types of plays.
Still inexcusable, but I'm not firing the guy for one play.
So, for me, yeah brutal pick 6 no denying it. Very, very bad play that can't happen.
However, Geno doesn't put the ball in harm's way as much as others. And is working at a pressure rate that is absurd. Additionally, we have still seen guys that are gunslingers have success in this league despite the turnovers because they push the ball downfield. Look no further than NFL MVP candidate Josh Allen. Guy is and has been a turnover machine (and fans have called for him to be benched every year he has been in Buffalo for it).
It's a work in progress. We have both talent and scheme/execution issues with our O-line. I don't think it's fair to say Grubb doesn't understand the problems, but I also wouldn't assume that he and/or Huff are the right guys to fix them. I think the lack of NFL experience is showing more as the season goes on, and that Grubb needs to make some adjustments now and potentially some fundamental changes in the offseason. Everyone is new to this and deserves some time to experiment and grow. Schneider's job will depend on his ability to track and measure that growth and make staffing decisions accordingly.
Thanks, Ken. I became way too upset last Sunday, along with worrying about other things. Geno is just too easy to blame. This very much clarifies his qualities. Maybe we become a spoiler team this year. I've adjusted.
That's what I'm cheering for now; ruining our rivals' seasons. With so many NFC games and divisional road games left of the schedule, we have a real opportunity to be vindictive assholes.
I've been on the "too much shotgun" bandwagon for a minute now based purely on observation, interesting to see the numbers and talking heads back that up. Within the context of the season (almost no chance at the playoffs) one of my biggest points of interest is if/how gameplans and playcalling on offense are tweaked over the rest of the year.
"Just like offensive line, there’s so much more nuance to playing the quarterback position."
Like the performance of the offensive line? If the line doesn't give Geno time, Geno hurries and makes poor choices. Poor choices are why Geno was a backup for a decade. Most of our Geno problems are solved with better blocking
I am sure that Grubb is doing what he can do to maximize the results with the talent that he has.
I have always thought the running game works better with the QB under center so the RBs have a step or two before getting the ball. And I know there is data that suggests you don't need a good running game to run play action, but it certainly doesn't hurt. If you can run the ball effectively a lot of other things open up for the offense. For me it is just that simple: you gotta have a run game to make everything else work.
I see a fair number of pass plays that take a relatively long time to develop. And that’s asking a LOT from an already struggling offensive line.
I’ve read that a good coach adapts his system to his players. The more I watch, it looks like the players are being asked to adapt to Grubb’s offense and Huff’s blocking scheme. And the past couple of weeks it’s not working.
Where are the plays that result in passing the ball in less than 2 seconds? I get that the long ball is important. But a slant for 6 yards is a successful play.
Am I convinced that shotgun vs. under center is a big problem for Geno and thus Grubb? No, but I'm still considering the implications of what you suggest. The stats were not overwhelming: 2 Td with zero INT's under center vs. 9 Td's with 10 INT's while in shotgun. Neither position created impressive numbers.
However, given that one of the reasons to go to shotgun is to give an uninterrupted view of the field and routes being run is improved vision, the shotgun position should produce fewer interceptions than under center, and since it doesn't get that result, it may be part of the problem.
I remember when Dallas started using shotgun, and got some good out of it. Then it became popular league wide.
If I had any faith in my own intuitions I would suggest we need way more motion pre-snap, and I'd never put Geno into shotgun with an empty backfield. Though I have seen plenty of positive plays from shotgun this year, generally, empty backfield shotgun has bad memories for me from the RW3 days.
I think we need to move the pocket like we did with Russ. More roll outs and getting Geno in space can create more time and give the fat guys up front a little bit more time
I am calling BS on this guy. A center that sends the ball into outer space, guards knocked on thieir butt , turnstiles for Rt and a Lt ( the best one is only average ) is no Duane brown.
In actuality one truly bad high snap doesn't have much to do with the enormous issues on the O-line. If we even just had D. Lewis still here the O-line would be in much better shape and performance. Changing a whole lot of how the offense works and what they could accomplish.
Schlereth during an interview with Seattle Sports this week, Grubb's overusage of shotgun calls is as much of a reason for the Seahawks poor offensive line play as anything else: "Show me a team that gives up seven sacks and I'll show you a team that has a coordinator that doesn't understand what the problems are up front."
CW was ranked as the #4 center in the league last year, so I see it as returning from a serious injury (possibly to quickly) and just the horrendous play of our guards.
Here's what I don't know. Well, a lot. But regarding shotgun vs. under center, supposedly the smart people say that a lot of QBs don't like to turn their backs for play action, because they miss a beat of what's developing, and they just don't have the skillset to have one view pre-snap, turn to hand off or not, and then to read the defense again and see the patterns. It probably takes a ton of film study to know if this is a Geno weakness. But given that he did decently last year with more under-center plays than this year, that doesn't seem to be the case. So this is a legit question. One thing that seems toast: Creativity. Watch the Chiefs. They do a TON with short passing that's all about having another second of time for Mahomes. I know, I know, Geno ain't that. But TIME heals a lot of wounds, and if you have just a little more of it you get to more complex routes. Seattle cannot, because they have zero time. So even a lot of crap pre-snap doesn't matter. Anything that might have come with time has expired.
I agree that Geno is under center way too few times per game. Play action is crucial to giving the line a better chance to give Geno time, and i think it will open things up for Walker too. If the LBs see the run coming out of shotgun, the blocks must be on point or the run goes no where. it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to try operating from under center a little more at this point to see if it helps to correct the problems.
The Lions starting OL has four first-round draft choices and one third-rounder. The Eagles have two first-rounders and two second rounders. Crucially, they are all good players (no John Moffitts or Justin Britts).
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that these lines don’t much care whether their QB is under center or in shotgun. In other words, the Hawks have to fix the Schneider problem first.
I really enjoyed listening to Bryce Coutts clip. He is exactly right and makes great points about when a right-handed QB gets pressure from his right, he needs to ground it or take a sack or try to run. Geno Smith cannot make that turnover at that moment.
The Barner interception opinion is a bit more flimsy but makes good points also. However, Will Rogers is not a good QB and has not done much with the Huskies. Maybe Geno should have grounded it? I don't know.
What I do know ... is that Coutts sounds very conservative. If we want Geno to play like this our offense wouldn't move the ball at all. Geno got pressured on 60% of his drop backs. So 3 out of 5 drop backs you want Geno to take a sack or throw the ball away? Huh? Due to the offensive line situation, Geno has to take some of these risks on. In this game alone you saw him make big time throws, off center, with rushers all around him. The end of the first half TD to JSN being the best example. If Coutts wants to (rightfully) criticize his decision to try and make a play in the end zone that was too much risk, he should also criticize ten other decisions that resulted in TDs or explosive plays because when you are Geno Smith, almost every play you are going to have pressure.
Furthermore, Geno Smith has one of the lowest Turnover Worthy Plays % in the NFL. He only has 10 TWPs and somehow has 10 interceptions. That is not a QB (not even including the pressures) making bad decisions that is a QB getting unlucky. Like throwing a dime to JSN and having him volleyball in the air to get picked off. What is Geno supposed to do? Not throw the ball to an open WR?
Overall, really enjoyed Coutts' opinion and he knows ball, but I don't think he is giving enough consideration to Geno's situation and then extrapolating a conclusion that goes against what we have seen. Just my two cents
Lastly, (great topic) in this same game we saw Stafford make essentially the same decision.
3rd Quarter 2:24 to play first and 10 from the Hawks 14-yard line. He double pumps fading to the left in the pocket then gets pressure from his right side and still makes the throw to the back of the end zone. Woolen would've picked it but he was interfered with (not called).
Obviously, Geno's arm got hit more so the ball came up shorter but these are the milliseconds we are talking about here. I wonder if Coutts would consider Stafford's decision to throw the ball equally as bad as Geno's? Safford is a SB winning QB and a hall of famer. The point being, guys like Stafford, Favre, Josh Allen on down the line of QBs make these types of plays.
Still inexcusable, but I'm not firing the guy for one play.
So, for me, yeah brutal pick 6 no denying it. Very, very bad play that can't happen.
However, Geno doesn't put the ball in harm's way as much as others. And is working at a pressure rate that is absurd. Additionally, we have still seen guys that are gunslingers have success in this league despite the turnovers because they push the ball downfield. Look no further than NFL MVP candidate Josh Allen. Guy is and has been a turnover machine (and fans have called for him to be benched every year he has been in Buffalo for it).
Not the most up to date but this gives you an idea about Turnover Worthy Plays:
https://x.com/throwthedamball/status/1852011176734961895
It's a work in progress. We have both talent and scheme/execution issues with our O-line. I don't think it's fair to say Grubb doesn't understand the problems, but I also wouldn't assume that he and/or Huff are the right guys to fix them. I think the lack of NFL experience is showing more as the season goes on, and that Grubb needs to make some adjustments now and potentially some fundamental changes in the offseason. Everyone is new to this and deserves some time to experiment and grow. Schneider's job will depend on his ability to track and measure that growth and make staffing decisions accordingly.
Thanks, Ken. I became way too upset last Sunday, along with worrying about other things. Geno is just too easy to blame. This very much clarifies his qualities. Maybe we become a spoiler team this year. I've adjusted.
That's what I'm cheering for now; ruining our rivals' seasons. With so many NFC games and divisional road games left of the schedule, we have a real opportunity to be vindictive assholes.
HooAhh!
I've been on the "too much shotgun" bandwagon for a minute now based purely on observation, interesting to see the numbers and talking heads back that up. Within the context of the season (almost no chance at the playoffs) one of my biggest points of interest is if/how gameplans and playcalling on offense are tweaked over the rest of the year.
"Just like offensive line, there’s so much more nuance to playing the quarterback position."
Like the performance of the offensive line? If the line doesn't give Geno time, Geno hurries and makes poor choices. Poor choices are why Geno was a backup for a decade. Most of our Geno problems are solved with better blocking
I am sure that Grubb is doing what he can do to maximize the results with the talent that he has.
I have always thought the running game works better with the QB under center so the RBs have a step or two before getting the ball. And I know there is data that suggests you don't need a good running game to run play action, but it certainly doesn't hurt. If you can run the ball effectively a lot of other things open up for the offense. For me it is just that simple: you gotta have a run game to make everything else work.
Right now I'd be limiting the shotgun snaps just due to how many of them are getting away from Geno.
Unless he gets sacked before he hands the ball off because the guys in the interior can't hold a block longer than 0.2 seconds
I see a fair number of pass plays that take a relatively long time to develop. And that’s asking a LOT from an already struggling offensive line.
I’ve read that a good coach adapts his system to his players. The more I watch, it looks like the players are being asked to adapt to Grubb’s offense and Huff’s blocking scheme. And the past couple of weeks it’s not working.
Where are the plays that result in passing the ball in less than 2 seconds? I get that the long ball is important. But a slant for 6 yards is a successful play.
I’m not ready to give up on the season.
Am I convinced that shotgun vs. under center is a big problem for Geno and thus Grubb? No, but I'm still considering the implications of what you suggest. The stats were not overwhelming: 2 Td with zero INT's under center vs. 9 Td's with 10 INT's while in shotgun. Neither position created impressive numbers.
However, given that one of the reasons to go to shotgun is to give an uninterrupted view of the field and routes being run is improved vision, the shotgun position should produce fewer interceptions than under center, and since it doesn't get that result, it may be part of the problem.
I remember when Dallas started using shotgun, and got some good out of it. Then it became popular league wide.
If I had any faith in my own intuitions I would suggest we need way more motion pre-snap, and I'd never put Geno into shotgun with an empty backfield. Though I have seen plenty of positive plays from shotgun this year, generally, empty backfield shotgun has bad memories for me from the RW3 days.
I think we need to move the pocket like we did with Russ. More roll outs and getting Geno in space can create more time and give the fat guys up front a little bit more time
I am calling BS on this guy. A center that sends the ball into outer space, guards knocked on thieir butt , turnstiles for Rt and a Lt ( the best one is only average ) is no Duane brown.
The team goes as far as the OL will let them.
In actuality one truly bad high snap doesn't have much to do with the enormous issues on the O-line. If we even just had D. Lewis still here the O-line would be in much better shape and performance. Changing a whole lot of how the offense works and what they could accomplish.
Who and what guy are you calling BS on?
“ According to retired Pro Bowl guard Mark
Schlereth during an interview with Seattle Sports this week, Grubb's overusage of shotgun calls is as much of a reason for the Seahawks poor offensive line play as anything else: "Show me a team that gives up seven sacks and I'll show you a team that has a coordinator that doesn't understand what the problems are up front."
It’s not that simple.
OK, thanks for the clarification. I am still thinking.
And yet, the ball doesn’t go into space if the QB is under center. And we haven’t had bad snaps ALL season.
CW was ranked as the #4 center in the league last year, so I see it as returning from a serious injury (possibly to quickly) and just the horrendous play of our guards.
Williams is a seven-year veteran. His snaps should be money under any circumstances.
I don’t know what’s going on with the bad snaps as if late. Injury ?
I figure it’s that or he’s focusing on helping a guard and isn’t 100% focused on the snaps.
Here's what I don't know. Well, a lot. But regarding shotgun vs. under center, supposedly the smart people say that a lot of QBs don't like to turn their backs for play action, because they miss a beat of what's developing, and they just don't have the skillset to have one view pre-snap, turn to hand off or not, and then to read the defense again and see the patterns. It probably takes a ton of film study to know if this is a Geno weakness. But given that he did decently last year with more under-center plays than this year, that doesn't seem to be the case. So this is a legit question. One thing that seems toast: Creativity. Watch the Chiefs. They do a TON with short passing that's all about having another second of time for Mahomes. I know, I know, Geno ain't that. But TIME heals a lot of wounds, and if you have just a little more of it you get to more complex routes. Seattle cannot, because they have zero time. So even a lot of crap pre-snap doesn't matter. Anything that might have come with time has expired.
100% agree