In all fairness, MM said that he would "have everyone in positions" within a week. Not that any starters or depth order would be determined. Now, Sundell and Haynes still don't have official positions, yet. So there's that. But it isn't like he said the competitions woulf be over by then
I'm happy that SSJ is coming around that coaching matters in player evaluations... I felt like a lone-wolf sometimes arguing that point back in the final days of Waldron. ;) The reality is that neither Cross nor Lucas were top-15 last year... and arguably not very close either. Truly awful a lot of the time. But... let's see what they do with NFL coaching and an NFL system. We should all have hope that they can be much better. And it goes for the others too. Dante Scarnecchia was a huge part of the Pats' success over the years... BB begged him to not retire more than once. A great OL coach can have a huge impact. I hope we found ours.
SEE! I TOLD YOU! BRADFORD! Bradford put in the work in the (mythical) off season and is going to have a breakout season! Having said that, he is now hopelessly jinxed by the 'Curse of Bob'. He could be 'figuatively' (in the intended meaning of the word) "cut and pasted" on the bench as a perpetual back up Guard (sorry dude). Also (but not 'equally') likely, he could fall in that 1.34% of the predictions I get right and have a killer season. Figuratively, also in the intended use of the word, "Break A Leg"!
I am not known for an optimist, but the OLine doesn't trouble me this year. They're young. They'll make mistakes, sure. But this year (to poach from Michael-Shawn Dugar) they have clarity. They have purpose. They have rules. And they have coaches who know what they're doing, who have done this exact same thing before.
That Barner didn't see many targets between the 20s isn't necessarily a reflection of his skill, but is an indictment of the play calling -- and that's beating a dead horse by this point.
Based on what I've obsessively read/listened to, I think we're looking at Cross/Zabel/Olu/Bradford/Lucas. HawkBlogger notes that Bradford is actually better than good at run blocking, and keeps noting that he and Lucas seem to pair well. Sundell will be first up somewhere in the interior. Haynes...this was supposed to be his year, his system. I don't know if the torn pec is the reason (never had one of those, never played guard, either), but he's not taken hold of the position and AB seems to be.
The good thing about rookies is they don't know what they can't do. Sometimes that's a strength. (And the good thing about being a fan is I don't know what rookies can't do, either!)
So many if's on this team...if coaching, if healthy, if strategy, if rookies....and on and on. I want to see proof. This is a pudding year....I have faith, and I can see what they are trying to do I think, but there remain many if's which makes me less confident in the overall outcome. But then on the other hand, I'm rewatching the last season several times and notice that if we just played good sound football last year we make the playoffs pretty easily. Red zone interceptions, errant snaps, special teams miscues, very avoidable penalties, and other very correctable behaviors...if we just fix the basics we're lightyears ahead.
I agree. Rule #1. Don't beat yourself. It didn't seem to look like that last year at times. Williams at center was a mistake. We couldn't cleanly field a punt for several weeks. Red zone picks.....ugh! We'll make mistakes this year too, but hopefully less often, and at less inopportune times.
This is not last year on the OL even if only one name has changed. First, everyone is a year older, and given they were all young last year, they are less young this year. Case in point, Bradford came to camp demonstrating a commitment to his job he hadn't shown before. He sculpted his body by losing excess weight in preparation for the wide zone scheme. Oluwatimi is in the system for one more year, and he has taken hold of the center position. The last nine games last year he held down the fort with ZERO sacks and minimal pressures. I'm not sure what others' want, but I was more than satisfied with his performance and look forward to another year of growth and improvement.
Abraham Lucas: Lucas allowed 4 sacks in 7 games and 406 snaps played. He also allowed 18 total pressures and committed 6 penalties.
Charles Cross: Cross allowed 6 sacks in 17 games and 1094 snaps played. He also allowed 47 pressures and committed 8 penalties.
Right guard Anthony Bradford alone allowed 5 sacks and 24 pressures in 2024.
While a specific breakdown for the left guard position (Laken Tomlinson for the majority of the season) isn't readily available, the interior offensive line as a whole (including both guard positions) allowed 9 sacks and 59 pressures.
For the Seattle Seahawks in the 2024 NFL season, Olu Oluwatimi allowed 0 sacks and 8 total quarterback pressures.
So you figure out where the problems were last year. I expect a significant improvement this year so long as the tackles can show improvement.
I'll cut Abe some slack, as he came back when he was pretty far away from 100%. I feel better about the o-line when I simplify it to two things. Zabel instead of Tomlinson, and Olu or Sundell instead of Williams. Those two swaps alone make us better. And 2025 Abe will be better than 2024 Abe. Maybe a lot better.
Cross & Lucas do not cause me any consternation. Lucas, I think, will look better than ever. He's leaner & stronger and getting better coaching. Watch out.
Zabel will be fine, a mix of good and bad early, and will start to look comfortable after 6 games or so. I want them to make up their minds on C and RG. How much do you need to see? Flip a coin. Roll a dice. Play paper, rock, scissors. I don't care. It's the same cast of characters for over a year. Pick 2 and let them play together as much as possible. All this switching positions is great if you're just building out depth options, but it sucks if you're moving around so much you're getting limited snaps at the one position you might actually win. Decide already, and tell the world......these are our 5 guys......for better or worse.
Very happy with the TE room. Not a single worry there. Young, athletic, and strong.....with some swag. Love it.
“How are you feeling about Cross and Lucas going into year four?”
This is the least of my concerns re the offense.
IOL: Brady Henderson reports that Bradford is the front-runner at RG. From the tone of his language, Bradford is the *clear* front-runner. Center, we’re probably looking at a guy, which isn’t so bad. I have a hard time believing that Sundell can beat out an Outland Trophy winner. Probable Week 1 starters:
LT Cross
LG Zabel
C Olu
RG Bradford
RT Lucas
If Lucas actually is healthy and Zabel lives up to his clippings, this unit should be okay at worst.
TEs: Last year, Barner was a legit red zone threat who offered little between the 20s. It’s a stretch to count on him making a Great Leap Forward in one year. Arroyo, along with the other Day 2 & 3 picks, is a developmental piece who whose best chance to shine will be in 2026. I don’t expect much out of him this year. While I like the future of this group better than the current set of WRs, for 2025 what I wrote about the WRs bears repeating: The running game had better be good.
I'm thinking Kubiak has a commitment to this O-Line group until after the first preseason game on Thursday. "Here's what we asked/here's what we saw/here's what we need."
Zabel needs to be good and Abe needs to stay healthy. I'm not worried about Cross or whoever wins the center job (I think Olu just about has it wrapped up). I am worried about RG and our depth at tackle. I think we have three or four guys that most teams would like as backup/developmental players, but someone has to start.
I do think that Kubiak calling the offence and bringing in this O-line coaching staff are the best offseason acquisitions we made. There might still be some tough moments in pass-pro, but I think the run blocking will make us fans, and our linemen, all happier.
I’m no line expert, but I’m not worried yet. The choices are all young with some strengths and some weaknesses. They’re now getting coached by a very experienced staff that I hope can build on those strengths while minimizing weaknesses. I’m confident that just having another year together is going to improve communication and cohesion. I don’t expect top 10 line, but maybe 20 rather than 30 or worse.
I think Sundell has a better shot at RG right now then Haynes does, at least from what I've read. I also think Cross needs to up his game if he wants huge bucks from the Hawks. He gets beat too often, especially by speed rushers. Although I also think that he would get those bucks elsewhere if the Hawks don't bite. Big Lucas fan. If the knee holds he could be the star of the line. Not sure what to think at center. Also, I've been disappointed not to hear a word, almost literally, on Cabledue at camp. His testing numbers were almost Zabel-level good...
I feel great about Cross. I think him and JSN are the two players I am most confident about on the offense. I am very excited for Lucas to get back also. Think he could be the best lineman on the team with the obvious Asterix that we don't fully know the injury situation.
But, knowing what I know now, I would sign Cross to a long term deal. And I would have a quick trigger finger to sign Lucas to a long term deal.
The question is whether Cross would sign up for a long-term deal. Former agent Joel Corry thinks that he’ll want out the fifth-year option and hit the FA market at the same time as Laramy Tunsil. Corry expects Tunsil to reset the LT market, providing Cross with a once-in-a-lifetime chance to slipstream.
In all fairness, MM said that he would "have everyone in positions" within a week. Not that any starters or depth order would be determined. Now, Sundell and Haynes still don't have official positions, yet. So there's that. But it isn't like he said the competitions woulf be over by then
I'm happy that SSJ is coming around that coaching matters in player evaluations... I felt like a lone-wolf sometimes arguing that point back in the final days of Waldron. ;) The reality is that neither Cross nor Lucas were top-15 last year... and arguably not very close either. Truly awful a lot of the time. But... let's see what they do with NFL coaching and an NFL system. We should all have hope that they can be much better. And it goes for the others too. Dante Scarnecchia was a huge part of the Pats' success over the years... BB begged him to not retire more than once. A great OL coach can have a huge impact. I hope we found ours.
Arroyo breaks into the Seahawks TE top 5 with 600 yards, passing Jerramy Stevens and John Carlson for 4th place.
Barner has a lot less but is in on run schemes and RPOs.
SEE! I TOLD YOU! BRADFORD! Bradford put in the work in the (mythical) off season and is going to have a breakout season! Having said that, he is now hopelessly jinxed by the 'Curse of Bob'. He could be 'figuatively' (in the intended meaning of the word) "cut and pasted" on the bench as a perpetual back up Guard (sorry dude). Also (but not 'equally') likely, he could fall in that 1.34% of the predictions I get right and have a killer season. Figuratively, also in the intended use of the word, "Break A Leg"!
I am not known for an optimist, but the OLine doesn't trouble me this year. They're young. They'll make mistakes, sure. But this year (to poach from Michael-Shawn Dugar) they have clarity. They have purpose. They have rules. And they have coaches who know what they're doing, who have done this exact same thing before.
That Barner didn't see many targets between the 20s isn't necessarily a reflection of his skill, but is an indictment of the play calling -- and that's beating a dead horse by this point.
Based on what I've obsessively read/listened to, I think we're looking at Cross/Zabel/Olu/Bradford/Lucas. HawkBlogger notes that Bradford is actually better than good at run blocking, and keeps noting that he and Lucas seem to pair well. Sundell will be first up somewhere in the interior. Haynes...this was supposed to be his year, his system. I don't know if the torn pec is the reason (never had one of those, never played guard, either), but he's not taken hold of the position and AB seems to be.
The good thing about rookies is they don't know what they can't do. Sometimes that's a strength. (And the good thing about being a fan is I don't know what rookies can't do, either!)
So many if's on this team...if coaching, if healthy, if strategy, if rookies....and on and on. I want to see proof. This is a pudding year....I have faith, and I can see what they are trying to do I think, but there remain many if's which makes me less confident in the overall outcome. But then on the other hand, I'm rewatching the last season several times and notice that if we just played good sound football last year we make the playoffs pretty easily. Red zone interceptions, errant snaps, special teams miscues, very avoidable penalties, and other very correctable behaviors...if we just fix the basics we're lightyears ahead.
I agree. Rule #1. Don't beat yourself. It didn't seem to look like that last year at times. Williams at center was a mistake. We couldn't cleanly field a punt for several weeks. Red zone picks.....ugh! We'll make mistakes this year too, but hopefully less often, and at less inopportune times.
Only on Seaside Joe :
"... bucking expectations to the point that even Seaside Joe looked like the fool."
hah, hah, THAT's why we're all here.
We have to remember SSJ was a stand-up comedian in a past life.
This is not last year on the OL even if only one name has changed. First, everyone is a year older, and given they were all young last year, they are less young this year. Case in point, Bradford came to camp demonstrating a commitment to his job he hadn't shown before. He sculpted his body by losing excess weight in preparation for the wide zone scheme. Oluwatimi is in the system for one more year, and he has taken hold of the center position. The last nine games last year he held down the fort with ZERO sacks and minimal pressures. I'm not sure what others' want, but I was more than satisfied with his performance and look forward to another year of growth and improvement.
Abraham Lucas: Lucas allowed 4 sacks in 7 games and 406 snaps played. He also allowed 18 total pressures and committed 6 penalties.
Charles Cross: Cross allowed 6 sacks in 17 games and 1094 snaps played. He also allowed 47 pressures and committed 8 penalties.
Right guard Anthony Bradford alone allowed 5 sacks and 24 pressures in 2024.
While a specific breakdown for the left guard position (Laken Tomlinson for the majority of the season) isn't readily available, the interior offensive line as a whole (including both guard positions) allowed 9 sacks and 59 pressures.
For the Seattle Seahawks in the 2024 NFL season, Olu Oluwatimi allowed 0 sacks and 8 total quarterback pressures.
So you figure out where the problems were last year. I expect a significant improvement this year so long as the tackles can show improvement.
I'll cut Abe some slack, as he came back when he was pretty far away from 100%. I feel better about the o-line when I simplify it to two things. Zabel instead of Tomlinson, and Olu or Sundell instead of Williams. Those two swaps alone make us better. And 2025 Abe will be better than 2024 Abe. Maybe a lot better.
Cross & Lucas do not cause me any consternation. Lucas, I think, will look better than ever. He's leaner & stronger and getting better coaching. Watch out.
Zabel will be fine, a mix of good and bad early, and will start to look comfortable after 6 games or so. I want them to make up their minds on C and RG. How much do you need to see? Flip a coin. Roll a dice. Play paper, rock, scissors. I don't care. It's the same cast of characters for over a year. Pick 2 and let them play together as much as possible. All this switching positions is great if you're just building out depth options, but it sucks if you're moving around so much you're getting limited snaps at the one position you might actually win. Decide already, and tell the world......these are our 5 guys......for better or worse.
Very happy with the TE room. Not a single worry there. Young, athletic, and strong.....with some swag. Love it.
“How are you feeling about Cross and Lucas going into year four?”
This is the least of my concerns re the offense.
IOL: Brady Henderson reports that Bradford is the front-runner at RG. From the tone of his language, Bradford is the *clear* front-runner. Center, we’re probably looking at a guy, which isn’t so bad. I have a hard time believing that Sundell can beat out an Outland Trophy winner. Probable Week 1 starters:
LT Cross
LG Zabel
C Olu
RG Bradford
RT Lucas
If Lucas actually is healthy and Zabel lives up to his clippings, this unit should be okay at worst.
TEs: Last year, Barner was a legit red zone threat who offered little between the 20s. It’s a stretch to count on him making a Great Leap Forward in one year. Arroyo, along with the other Day 2 & 3 picks, is a developmental piece who whose best chance to shine will be in 2026. I don’t expect much out of him this year. While I like the future of this group better than the current set of WRs, for 2025 what I wrote about the WRs bears repeating: The running game had better be good.
I'm thinking Kubiak has a commitment to this O-Line group until after the first preseason game on Thursday. "Here's what we asked/here's what we saw/here's what we need."
Zabel needs to be good and Abe needs to stay healthy. I'm not worried about Cross or whoever wins the center job (I think Olu just about has it wrapped up). I am worried about RG and our depth at tackle. I think we have three or four guys that most teams would like as backup/developmental players, but someone has to start.
I do think that Kubiak calling the offence and bringing in this O-line coaching staff are the best offseason acquisitions we made. There might still be some tough moments in pass-pro, but I think the run blocking will make us fans, and our linemen, all happier.
Solid, Grant. I like it.
I’m no line expert, but I’m not worried yet. The choices are all young with some strengths and some weaknesses. They’re now getting coached by a very experienced staff that I hope can build on those strengths while minimizing weaknesses. I’m confident that just having another year together is going to improve communication and cohesion. I don’t expect top 10 line, but maybe 20 rather than 30 or worse.
How does the system factor Tackles who must take on Nick Bosa and Aaron Donald TWICE every year? TJ Watt? These guys make fools of most everyone.
"Aaron Donald retired from the NFL. He announced his retirement on March 15, 2024."
Many O-Line players, QBs 'n Offensive coaches breathed a sigh of relief.
I think Sundell has a better shot at RG right now then Haynes does, at least from what I've read. I also think Cross needs to up his game if he wants huge bucks from the Hawks. He gets beat too often, especially by speed rushers. Although I also think that he would get those bucks elsewhere if the Hawks don't bite. Big Lucas fan. If the knee holds he could be the star of the line. Not sure what to think at center. Also, I've been disappointed not to hear a word, almost literally, on Cabledue at camp. His testing numbers were almost Zabel-level good...
Super Joe here.
TE predictions? We are Top 5 in TE run-blocking; Barner is reminiscent of the Uncle Will days; and Arroyo is a better version of Fant.
I feel great about Cross. I think him and JSN are the two players I am most confident about on the offense. I am very excited for Lucas to get back also. Think he could be the best lineman on the team with the obvious Asterix that we don't fully know the injury situation.
But, knowing what I know now, I would sign Cross to a long term deal. And I would have a quick trigger finger to sign Lucas to a long term deal.
I agree. Go Hawks!!!
The question is whether Cross would sign up for a long-term deal. Former agent Joel Corry thinks that he’ll want out the fifth-year option and hit the FA market at the same time as Laramy Tunsil. Corry expects Tunsil to reset the LT market, providing Cross with a once-in-a-lifetime chance to slipstream.
Wanting to retire here will go a long way with MM and JS.