I can't help but think that JSN is designed/destined to replace Lockett next year as number 2 since Lockett is so expensive next year and is past the receiver 30 threshold. It will be hard to say goodbye to "no-E" but without emotion it makes sense.
Personally, I rather like Rob Staton's articles/comments. He's an interesting fellow and he always has interesting, well reasoned views. I don't care that he's right all the time, or wrong sometimes. If we tune out people who are wrong on occasion, we wouldn't be tuning into anyone now, would we. Rob had a point of view on the draft, and it turned out to be not what the Seahawks had in mind. But he did think highly of Spoon, so there is that. Overall, Rob's draft board was pretty damned accurate. I'm allowed to be wrong (I'm actually pretty good at it), SSJ's allowed to be wrong, and Rob's allowed to be wrong. Everybody's allowed to be wrong. Did everyone think the Rams would be pathetic? Yup.
Are they? Not at all. It's ok. Be wrong. It's good for the soul.
As to JSN, I'm not at all worried. I do think there are opportunities Shane Waldron can look at, based on what defenses are doing to DK and Lockett to scheme him open from time to time. There should be times when Geno reads the defense pre-snap, sees the coverage, and comes off of the planned #1 or #2 look, and that's where JSN can really shine.....making defenses pay for prioritizing the outside threats. Regardless of how they try to get him involved, I don't think he'll have a miraculous year, just based on how the offense is structured. As SSJ pointed out, it's not just about getting him numbers this year to prove we drafted him in the right slot, it's about developing him for year 2 and beyond. Anything this year is gravy.
That said, it would not surprise me to see him have a few big games down the stretch. There is no questioning the talent. And could he step up in a big way if DK or Lock gets injured? I think he absolutely could.
One thing you didn't mention is a difference in chemistry. When Lock played in the preseason, JSN caught a lot of passes. As soon as Smith entered, in the last preseason game, JSN rarely got a look. I think Seattle has a better chance of real success if they start Lock. He may have a lower floor than Smith but he also has a much higher ceiling. I don't see Smith as a guy who can guide Seattle to a deep run through the playoffs.
Before Monday, all we had were hopes for a quality backup QB. Today I know Lock is truly a force to be reckoned with. He comes to us seasoned to the nuances of success/failure and with the high quality of Coaching Pete hired, I have zero doubt about betting he succeeds than fails. Once Geno gets passed his subdued passions, he is fully capable of being his own version of Leader. That means he must risk pissing off Pete Carroll in order to find this. Next time, don't be in such a mad hurry to get back into the game. Rest the knee and let's see what Lock may do. Between the two of them, we'll own a Super Bowl. Fact is, I'd like to see a blend of experience and youth at QB in any game we play, but Contracts preclude this. 'Out-of-the box' or next level strategy? Call the Agents...
I don’t play fantasy football which I hope doesn’t disqualify me from participating in this thread.
If you’re asking me if you or I thought a season of 51 catches for 264 yards and zero TD’s was our expectation for JSN (his current annualized stats) I would say no, we expected more.
But those things are not linear. Lockett was 1st team all pro his rookie season. As a returner.
It took some time for him to become important on offense. Then he became necessary. And we had Baldwin, and then second tier guys like Richardson (and the failed Jimmy Graham experiment). There was more space for Lockett than today to JSN.
I agree actually, there isn’t as much room as Lockett had. Just saying I had expected more. There’s even less room for Bobo, yet he has a (borderline elite) TD already. And as elite as JSN is, I had just expected that when out there, he’d be more open/draw more targets/be more impactful. Esp on 3rd downs. I can understand the argument for why he hasn’t, just saying we all thought he’d have been more impactful by now.
It's a gut call. 10 years ago I'd occasionally take Seattle's fullback, Mac Strong, as my week's RB and did quite well. The following week, he'd not get anything but blocking. Keep them on your roster, they are money down the road.
I just keep thinking about 2015, which in many ways is similar to this season. They drafted Lockett primarily as a return specialist to start out but they desperately needed to elevate their receiver core after 2014, so they trade for Jimmy Graham and took Lockett in r2. Lockett got 2-5 targets in each game until Graham went down in the massive shootout with the Steelers WK 11. And even AFTER Graham went out in that game, Lockett still ended up with only 3 targets in that game. It was the following week vs the Vikings that his targets exploded with 7 and that continued through to the end of the season.
I don't want ANY injuries but JSN is simply lower on the list right now than a lot of other accomplished veteran players. It won't last though.
Totally agree a large part of this is QB and he is like many of part Seattle QBs and goes with first or second read. And JSN isn’t. Second, JSN was never really going to be anything but the roughly 5th read anyway. And under PC the 4/5th reads rarely catch passes (DK/Tyler 1 & 2. TE group 3. RB is fourth then JSN). Watching last night I think really showed that to be the case and thanks for pointing out its LOS only passes this far, or a couple of down field Geno threw way over his head. Uncatchable throws.
I'm not worried about JSN for all the reasons you delineated.
As regards Lock, who I know you didn't write about, but I couldn't help notice how fleet afoot he is, and the rocket arm he has. His throws seemed to have more zip on them then was necessary to have the greatest chance of being caught. His receivers were wide open, which was fortunate because Drew's accuracy was not apparent. He missed the wide open receivers by more than a little and left no chance the receiver could react to the errant pass as it would be like catching a bullet.
On the other hand, when he connected it resulted in a long gain and almost a TD. Drew was accurate one of three of those passes and they were all down the field. His mobility is impressive. If he works on his accuracy while moving he could be a first rate QB maybe. Hopefully.
Carroll seemed to say that Lock was too hyped up at getting a chance to play in an important situation. He just needed to settle down. You see other substitute quarterbacks do the same thing all the time. With the easier schedule coming up, maybe Drew can get in the game more when we have a sizeable lead. Then he may be more ready to come in when the game is on the line.
I think Drew's accuracy will improve greatly with more playing time. U seem to remember Geno's accuracy wasn't so great when Russ got injured and he had to fill in. However, with more game time his accuracy improved greatly.
Lock targeted JSN at least twice in his very limited attempts. He had a shot batted down that may have been going to him, so maybe it was 3. It is hard for me to realize the intensity of disappointment JSN may be wrestling with after his heady college days ended. Of note is his dejected behavior after the interception that was clearly on Geno, who said as much in his pep talk with him. What gets him 'up' may conversely get him 'down'. Such is Passion.
JSN will be fine. He is a WR2 in waiting/learning. What has really surprised me in the WR group for the Seahawks is just how good DK has been. His catch rate and YAC are both up considerably, and he is even catching the ball reliably in the End Zone if yesterday was an indication. If there is an injury to another player (DK/Lockett especially) we will see more targets suddenly go to JSN and he will be ready.
And I think you could have a pretty good day doing the opposite of whatever Rob wants to do.
Anyone got any clues as to why we are so bad on 3rd down? Is it play calling? Scheme? I don't get it because you'd think it would be identifiable and therefore possible to correct and without actually going back and checking I feel like this has been a problem for multiple seasons so what gives?
But you'd think that would extend to other downs and not just 3rd. I suppose I will need to look at their conversion rates on the other downs to compare but I want to figure out why they have trouble executing on 3rd down...and why they seem to have trouble in the red zone for that matter.
I think Ken is right on when he says that executing in the red zone (and on third and manageable yardage too, for that matter) is about players not plays. Executing the play or if it isn't there "finding a way" is what is required.
The TD from Geno to DK yesterday was a good sign. But DK stepping out of bounds then not reestablishing before the pass got to him on 3rd down is an example of what not to do. I really liked Lock's athleticism to run for the first down, then sprint out away from pressure and find Fant. That last play went for long distance, but it was going to achieve the 1st even if Fant fell down after he caught the ball.
I get down on Geno for not "finding a way" because I think with the weapons the Seahawks have there should almost always be a way to convert on 3rd and in the red zone.
A scrambling QB freezes one guy as Spy up the center, so not being a threat, they play elsewhere. Waldron needs to design some 4 or 5 yard Geno scrambles, as he's not too bad at running. The threat of injury is not nearly as daunting after Monday's game. Any rivalry at QB will hold us back. Geno and Drew need to be tight and on the same page with this, lest resentments begin to build. Look at how New Orleans brought in Taysom Hill at QB in such situations. Hell, even I knew he was going to scramble.
JSN will find his identity, just a matter of time. He is doing his job blocking and soon there will be more looks for him. Before you know it the conversation about this will be over. May the 12s be with you and Go Seahawks!
No doubt JSN's expectations had his Mojo up through the roof. Young men can easily think they've lost it when frustrations build. He'll find it soon enough.
I really think they are going to need him and will start scheming more plays for him. I think everyone is in for a surprise in the next month. Maybe I’m having a vision. Aum.....Aum. A little Zen can go along way.
I had no idea people were upset about JSN. That is hilarious.
But, he has had a somewhat rough start (could be the surgery?). Dropped potential first down against the Rams. Geno may have insinuated that the interception against the Panthers was due to JSN (wrong route?). Dropped ball last night with Lock. And also last night with Lock was JSN supposed to settle into the zone and missed it or just a bad throw by Lock?
Hard to say for sure.
I can't imagine playing slot receiver is easy in the NFL. When I think of really good slot guys, I tend to think of wily vets like Bobby Engram. Which probably takes time to develop as opposed to an outside speed guy.
I can't help but think that JSN is designed/destined to replace Lockett next year as number 2 since Lockett is so expensive next year and is past the receiver 30 threshold. It will be hard to say goodbye to "no-E" but without emotion it makes sense.
Good Read!
I agree and have nothing to add. You covered it all.
Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!
Well Said
Personally, I rather like Rob Staton's articles/comments. He's an interesting fellow and he always has interesting, well reasoned views. I don't care that he's right all the time, or wrong sometimes. If we tune out people who are wrong on occasion, we wouldn't be tuning into anyone now, would we. Rob had a point of view on the draft, and it turned out to be not what the Seahawks had in mind. But he did think highly of Spoon, so there is that. Overall, Rob's draft board was pretty damned accurate. I'm allowed to be wrong (I'm actually pretty good at it), SSJ's allowed to be wrong, and Rob's allowed to be wrong. Everybody's allowed to be wrong. Did everyone think the Rams would be pathetic? Yup.
Are they? Not at all. It's ok. Be wrong. It's good for the soul.
As to JSN, I'm not at all worried. I do think there are opportunities Shane Waldron can look at, based on what defenses are doing to DK and Lockett to scheme him open from time to time. There should be times when Geno reads the defense pre-snap, sees the coverage, and comes off of the planned #1 or #2 look, and that's where JSN can really shine.....making defenses pay for prioritizing the outside threats. Regardless of how they try to get him involved, I don't think he'll have a miraculous year, just based on how the offense is structured. As SSJ pointed out, it's not just about getting him numbers this year to prove we drafted him in the right slot, it's about developing him for year 2 and beyond. Anything this year is gravy.
That said, it would not surprise me to see him have a few big games down the stretch. There is no questioning the talent. And could he step up in a big way if DK or Lock gets injured? I think he absolutely could.
One thing you didn't mention is a difference in chemistry. When Lock played in the preseason, JSN caught a lot of passes. As soon as Smith entered, in the last preseason game, JSN rarely got a look. I think Seattle has a better chance of real success if they start Lock. He may have a lower floor than Smith but he also has a much higher ceiling. I don't see Smith as a guy who can guide Seattle to a deep run through the playoffs.
Before Monday, all we had were hopes for a quality backup QB. Today I know Lock is truly a force to be reckoned with. He comes to us seasoned to the nuances of success/failure and with the high quality of Coaching Pete hired, I have zero doubt about betting he succeeds than fails. Once Geno gets passed his subdued passions, he is fully capable of being his own version of Leader. That means he must risk pissing off Pete Carroll in order to find this. Next time, don't be in such a mad hurry to get back into the game. Rest the knee and let's see what Lock may do. Between the two of them, we'll own a Super Bowl. Fact is, I'd like to see a blend of experience and youth at QB in any game we play, but Contracts preclude this. 'Out-of-the box' or next level strategy? Call the Agents...
Brilliant brother Joe.
I don’t play fantasy football which I hope doesn’t disqualify me from participating in this thread.
If you’re asking me if you or I thought a season of 51 catches for 264 yards and zero TD’s was our expectation for JSN (his current annualized stats) I would say no, we expected more.
But those things are not linear. Lockett was 1st team all pro his rookie season. As a returner.
It took some time for him to become important on offense. Then he became necessary. And we had Baldwin, and then second tier guys like Richardson (and the failed Jimmy Graham experiment). There was more space for Lockett than today to JSN.
I agree actually, there isn’t as much room as Lockett had. Just saying I had expected more. There’s even less room for Bobo, yet he has a (borderline elite) TD already. And as elite as JSN is, I had just expected that when out there, he’d be more open/draw more targets/be more impactful. Esp on 3rd downs. I can understand the argument for why he hasn’t, just saying we all thought he’d have been more impactful by now.
It's a gut call. 10 years ago I'd occasionally take Seattle's fullback, Mac Strong, as my week's RB and did quite well. The following week, he'd not get anything but blocking. Keep them on your roster, they are money down the road.
Don’t actually play fantasy football. Comments have been as a pure and simple Seahawks fan.
Exactly my thoughts
I just keep thinking about 2015, which in many ways is similar to this season. They drafted Lockett primarily as a return specialist to start out but they desperately needed to elevate their receiver core after 2014, so they trade for Jimmy Graham and took Lockett in r2. Lockett got 2-5 targets in each game until Graham went down in the massive shootout with the Steelers WK 11. And even AFTER Graham went out in that game, Lockett still ended up with only 3 targets in that game. It was the following week vs the Vikings that his targets exploded with 7 and that continued through to the end of the season.
I don't want ANY injuries but JSN is simply lower on the list right now than a lot of other accomplished veteran players. It won't last though.
Totally agree a large part of this is QB and he is like many of part Seattle QBs and goes with first or second read. And JSN isn’t. Second, JSN was never really going to be anything but the roughly 5th read anyway. And under PC the 4/5th reads rarely catch passes (DK/Tyler 1 & 2. TE group 3. RB is fourth then JSN). Watching last night I think really showed that to be the case and thanks for pointing out its LOS only passes this far, or a couple of down field Geno threw way over his head. Uncatchable throws.
I'm not worried about JSN for all the reasons you delineated.
As regards Lock, who I know you didn't write about, but I couldn't help notice how fleet afoot he is, and the rocket arm he has. His throws seemed to have more zip on them then was necessary to have the greatest chance of being caught. His receivers were wide open, which was fortunate because Drew's accuracy was not apparent. He missed the wide open receivers by more than a little and left no chance the receiver could react to the errant pass as it would be like catching a bullet.
On the other hand, when he connected it resulted in a long gain and almost a TD. Drew was accurate one of three of those passes and they were all down the field. His mobility is impressive. If he works on his accuracy while moving he could be a first rate QB maybe. Hopefully.
Carroll seemed to say that Lock was too hyped up at getting a chance to play in an important situation. He just needed to settle down. You see other substitute quarterbacks do the same thing all the time. With the easier schedule coming up, maybe Drew can get in the game more when we have a sizeable lead. Then he may be more ready to come in when the game is on the line.
Agree 100%
I think Drew's accuracy will improve greatly with more playing time. U seem to remember Geno's accuracy wasn't so great when Russ got injured and he had to fill in. However, with more game time his accuracy improved greatly.
Lock targeted JSN at least twice in his very limited attempts. He had a shot batted down that may have been going to him, so maybe it was 3. It is hard for me to realize the intensity of disappointment JSN may be wrestling with after his heady college days ended. Of note is his dejected behavior after the interception that was clearly on Geno, who said as much in his pep talk with him. What gets him 'up' may conversely get him 'down'. Such is Passion.
JSN will be fine. He is a WR2 in waiting/learning. What has really surprised me in the WR group for the Seahawks is just how good DK has been. His catch rate and YAC are both up considerably, and he is even catching the ball reliably in the End Zone if yesterday was an indication. If there is an injury to another player (DK/Lockett especially) we will see more targets suddenly go to JSN and he will be ready.
And I think you could have a pretty good day doing the opposite of whatever Rob wants to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CizwH_T7pjg
Anyone got any clues as to why we are so bad on 3rd down? Is it play calling? Scheme? I don't get it because you'd think it would be identifiable and therefore possible to correct and without actually going back and checking I feel like this has been a problem for multiple seasons so what gives?
I see it as a Geno issue. He's not identifying the opportunities and/or adjusting for them. On 3rd down, the QB must lead.
Execution.... it was nice to see Lock convert a couple of 3rd downs on his TD drive.
But you'd think that would extend to other downs and not just 3rd. I suppose I will need to look at their conversion rates on the other downs to compare but I want to figure out why they have trouble executing on 3rd down...and why they seem to have trouble in the red zone for that matter.
I think Ken is right on when he says that executing in the red zone (and on third and manageable yardage too, for that matter) is about players not plays. Executing the play or if it isn't there "finding a way" is what is required.
The TD from Geno to DK yesterday was a good sign. But DK stepping out of bounds then not reestablishing before the pass got to him on 3rd down is an example of what not to do. I really liked Lock's athleticism to run for the first down, then sprint out away from pressure and find Fant. That last play went for long distance, but it was going to achieve the 1st even if Fant fell down after he caught the ball.
I get down on Geno for not "finding a way" because I think with the weapons the Seahawks have there should almost always be a way to convert on 3rd and in the red zone.
A scrambling QB freezes one guy as Spy up the center, so not being a threat, they play elsewhere. Waldron needs to design some 4 or 5 yard Geno scrambles, as he's not too bad at running. The threat of injury is not nearly as daunting after Monday's game. Any rivalry at QB will hold us back. Geno and Drew need to be tight and on the same page with this, lest resentments begin to build. Look at how New Orleans brought in Taysom Hill at QB in such situations. Hell, even I knew he was going to scramble.
JSN will find his identity, just a matter of time. He is doing his job blocking and soon there will be more looks for him. Before you know it the conversation about this will be over. May the 12s be with you and Go Seahawks!
No doubt JSN's expectations had his Mojo up through the roof. Young men can easily think they've lost it when frustrations build. He'll find it soon enough.
I really think they are going to need him and will start scheming more plays for him. I think everyone is in for a surprise in the next month. Maybe I’m having a vision. Aum.....Aum. A little Zen can go along way.
JSN will score the game-winning TD in the Superbowl.
Or Bobo.
I had no idea people were upset about JSN. That is hilarious.
But, he has had a somewhat rough start (could be the surgery?). Dropped potential first down against the Rams. Geno may have insinuated that the interception against the Panthers was due to JSN (wrong route?). Dropped ball last night with Lock. And also last night with Lock was JSN supposed to settle into the zone and missed it or just a bad throw by Lock?
Hard to say for sure.
I can't imagine playing slot receiver is easy in the NFL. When I think of really good slot guys, I tend to think of wily vets like Bobby Engram. Which probably takes time to develop as opposed to an outside speed guy.
Lock sure seemed focused on the kid. I think 3 of his 6 throws were to him.