So I was thinking to myself, "Who does this offense remind me of?". For some reason I keep coming back to the 2016 Atlanta Falcons with Kyle S as the offensive coordinator. I see some simularities at TE, WR, RB even QB. The Falcons threw a lot of passes to their backs (883 yards total). They could make the big play but could also control the clock and use the short passing game. Like SF they ran the ball a lot but, the threat of the passing game really opened up their running opportunities. The big shift for Atlanta between 2015-16 was a passing to their backs with adding another 350 plus yards. With the add of JSN and Lockett skills of getting open, ball control plays a bigger roll in keeping the opposing offense off the field, but also opening up the "Big Play" opportunities. Honestly I just can't remember a Seattle team with this much offensive firepower. From WR, to TE, RB and Geno showing he didn't "write back"
What went wrong for Geno at the end of last year? For one trying to do to much, forcing the ball and poor offensive line protection (playing from behind). So what might be different this year? More help guard to guard, JSN, unique variety and talent at RB, as well as another year and a new contract for Geno.
The other potential big difference this year is defensive help. Offensive quality goes up exponetially when the defense keeps you in the game. The big question seems to be around the league, "Did Seattle do enough to stop the run?" I think they helped themselves on the offensive side of the ball by upgrading their offense in such a way where more opponents might be playing form behind on the scoreboard in 2023, as well as having fewer offensive opportunities. I think the LB's will bring more to the party this year and the DL might surprise some. The secondary will be opportunistic and be better against the run.
Offensively Seattle will use Young more at FB or H Back. The mix and match possiblities offensively in 23, if the chemistry and scheme is right, might well take Seattle to another level.
Will Geno be offensive player of the year and MVP in 2023 (Ryan was in 16)? Even if he isn't the offense at least on paper has taken a major leap forward IMHO. Seattle's front office has worked very hard on the ingredients the last two years, and everyone knows the best cooking is dependant on that.
Within the world of government and corporate conspiracy theories, the simplest and likely the most accurate way to source the shenanigans is to 'follow the money', right? Well, within the world NFL Coordinators is to source the mentor...when we 'follow the coaching-tree', a lot can be understood.
These discussions about what to expect from Shane Waldron's Offense (or Clint Hurtt's Defense) feel pretty spot on. Lightning offense that is able to run from every angle and pass at any distance - all with a 'point guard' at QB. I too and seeing this team's clearly wanting to be as explosive as possible.
Really nice to hear and see you, Ken. I'm interested in the Vedic meditation you talked about. Is there a book you could recommend that talks about the 20 minutes of daily meditation ritual? I have dabbled in meditation before but have not gone too far into it and gained traction as a daily discipline. I'm a strong proponent of doing a little bit of something everyday consistently to improve in whatever endeavor it is. Ten minutes of meditation in the morning and ten minutes in the evening sounds really doable. It's not terribly time consuming and the results can be nothing but positive. There are so many meditation techniques out there. I'd like to know what meditation technique you use.
I think Pete believed in Waldron from the start. I feel like what Pete admires most is a system he has trouble stopping and the Rams have been that. I also think he believed in Russ. For all the rah rah, I believe Pete is very analytical about how football games are won at the NFL level. The analytics of NFL point out that scoring drives are lot more likely with a gap play and awful lot of games come down to the last four minutes. Russ was as good as anyone at generating gap plays and excelled in the last four minutes. The problem was the rest of the game where Russ often struggled. In effort to fix that the Seahawks brought in Waldron. In one abbreviated season it was pretty clear that either Russ did not believe in Waldron's system could not execute the scheme. (There was great article in the Ringer last year after the trade, about Russ and Waldron that pointed out that no matter who the Seahawks offensive coordinator was the Seahawks ended up playing Russ ball.) It is anyone's guess whether Russ forced the choice or Pete did but the deal gave Waldron an opportunity.
In any event ,my belief is last year was the first time that we really saw Waldron system in action. All things considered (three rookies, a mid level quarterback, weak center and guard balanced against a second half drop off when facing better defense and adjustments), it looked pretty good. Substituting Geno for Russ, however, there was still as I saw it a system mismatch to personnel despite the upgrade in pass protection. In essence my belief is that the McVey/Waldron system focuses initially on the middle of the field to set up gap plays on the outside third of the field. Once Penny was injured the Seahawks did not have a single dominate inside player to threaten the middle of the field, and getting gap plays outside got a lot tougher because defenses could concentrate on stopping those without fear of being gashed in the middle of the field. This Seahawks year on the offensive side of the ball drafted a group of players that on paper improve the inside threat. Whether that was by design or plan B based on how the draft will likely never be known and I will always wonder if the Seahawks would have drafted Richardson if he was there. (The surest way to be an effective run the ball first team and create GAP plays is to have an elite running QB.) What I do know is that if they had drafted Richardson and I was Waldron, I would have been looking for a new job because the Seahawks sure as heck would not be looking to run my system going forward.
I won't stand by a let someone bash too hard on Scream V & VI, which still stand very comfortably toe to toe with the top end of modern studio horror. But like with the modern 'Hawks, the air of comparision to the great's of the past weighs heavily (i.e Scream & L.O.B.).
However you have to move forwards and do new things. Mix-up the formula. Scream provided two incredibly unique and surprising sequels and has locked in a really great core of actors, but ripping up the rule book just like Wes did way back when. The 'Hawks tore up the franchise in a big swing and now has it's own new core capable of defying the rules again. Until we get to the end point of these arcs we will not know how good they are. Can Scream VII stick a trilogy landing? Can the new look 'Hawks deliver a ring?
This comment probably doesn't make too much sense, but i don't have the luxury of Kens talent or full space blog to explain myself :p Just keep up the movie references, and I guess the football analysis.
Haha. I still appreciate Scream discourse. I won't get into the movies themselves too deep here just in case I ended up spoiling any of it for anyone, but as someone who has seen Scream 50 times, I probably won't see Scream 5 or 6 more than one time.
I never saw Scream and don't feel the need to. Surprisingly, I seem to feel about as strongly about the movie Captain Marvel. I will note that in that movie Carol Danvers did a major turnaround mid-movie, and then she really began to kick ass. Go Hawks!
The Seahawks appear to be built to get ahead early and then stay ahead. late. To get ahead they need to be able to throw the ball because points come from the passing game. To stay ahead they have to be able to stop the passing game and control the clock by running the ball, This is a complete 180 from the Seahawks 2012 to 2018/19 where the Seahawks dominate defense coupled with explosive plays wore down the opposing team and imposed there will in the 4th quarter. The Seahawks look to impose early separate and then make the opposing team play catch up.
Seattle native Don Cornell’s HOF induction this year was long overdue, despite never getting to a Super Bowl. He was among the most influential coaches in NFL history.
Good write up. Yep, our offense is rebuilt. Meet the new offense, same as the old offense. Without as many off script backyard football.
In the first half of last season, Geno was throwing to open receivers. Mostly, they were schemed open as opposed to expecting a WR to shake off his CB long enough to be open. Lockett can do that. DK not so much. Add into the mix JSN, who I believe will be the best of the bunch at shaking off coverage or finding the open spot.
Given the attention paid to the RB group, I cannot say we are preparing to pass the ball more. And if you asked Pete, he will tell you he is looking for "balance" and if you ask Geno, I think he will tell you they will take what the defense is giving. If they crowd the box, the will throw. If they sit back in two deep they will more likely run the ball. So the final stats will reflect what the defenses decide to not to protect. No one knows how that will play out, but if past is prologue then YOU may be correct.
Geno may pass for 5,000 yards this year without anyone particularly thinking we are throwing too much. We may also sport two 1,000 yard rushers. We may break the records Payton Manning set while in Denver in the year of our lord, 2013. The same year we met the Broncos in the SuperBowl. Manning set records for yards or points or both. We crushed them in the SB 43-8.
So if we get to the SB, don't expect a win this year.
If we get to the SB with our powerful offense and a middling defense, like the Broncos were, we won't be facing the Legion of Boom. Also, we'll have to be sure Olu is taught to be patient on our first first down and not hike the ball while Geno is talking to a wide out.
I think the narrative that Pete wants a run heavy offense has always been incredibly overblown. Pete wants to win & that always boils down to ANY combination that creates more points for you and less points for them. I see this offense being constructed to be versatile & balanced but with the ability to be explosive IF the opportunity is there but not forced if it's not (like the "Let Russ Cook" offenses that always wanted to be explosive). To accomplish that you have to get guys who are talented but buy into winning over their stats. Geno may turn into an all world guy like Mahomes & Brady, but Pete wants an offense that can win whether he is all world, great or really good.
You make good points, but I'd add: instead of run heavy offense, Pete wants ball control. He wants to keep the ball from the other team, and wear opposing defenses out. So he'd like to run more, but knows predictable offenses get shut down.
Pete likes being physical, and running the ball accomplishes that. He wants to get to the 4th quarter seeing the other team tired. Sadly, the last few years, it's happened to HIS defense.
Pete also wants improvement on 3rd down. I think the Smith-Ngiba and Charbonnet draft picks especially attest to that. I also see us using McIntosh on third down when we need about 5 yards, as he can protect Geno or go out to the flat for a quick throw, depending on what Geno sees the defense doing.
Good point. Pete wants an offense that can run the ball whenever they want to, but if they maintain winning while passing, he's fine with that. It's the times they've stalled out in the passing game, and then couldn't run it either, that has led to his most blatant comments about being able to run the ball.
And the Russ years weren't passing light at much as thought, Russ just would get 200 or 300 yards on 20-25 attempts because of deep balls, instead of 30+. Same distance traveled, just fewer plays to do it.
So we'll see. Hawk's Nest podcast guy used the term amoeba offense, able to shift form at will to take advantage of the opponent's weakness. That's my hope. Able to run it 40 times in a grind it out game in bad weather, or win a passing shootout against Cincy, Dallas, or Philly.
I don't know what to expect from Geno this season. The contract was a lot better than I was braced for, and I'm hoping he hits every incentive and starts again in '24 -but at least there's an easy out if his play doesn't hold up. I feel like he will be the key to how far this team goes. And he's stocked with weapons and what should be a good line and running game. With any luck, Lock will have a great preseason and look capable of starting should Geno struggle or get injured. I'm even less confident that will happen, though.
Geno Smith doesn't need to be as good as Burrow because he has the natural advantage of a stronger arm. But he needs to be the best QB in the NFC (a tall order, but not a skyscraper one like it would be in the AFC) if we want to make to the Superb Owl.
A tall order but attainable. In my opinion, Geno is much closer to being the best QB in the NFC than many fans and talking heads are projecting. If he cuts down on his mental errors I would think he is pretty close. Also, the OC has to have a better plan for when the defense adjusts at halftime. As I see it, and I am no expert, during the second half of the season, last year, the defenses made adjustments at halftime that took away some of Geno's options and the OC didn't adjust to what the defenses were doing. And the team didn't respond in such a way to negate those adjustments. But the AFC has some awfully good young guns at QB and Geno would be more hard pressed to break into the upper tier of those elite QBs.
Even so, if Geno is as ready as PCJS seem to think he is and given the weapons he has, I’d be comfortable with going up any team in this group except KC or Cincinnati.
So I was thinking to myself, "Who does this offense remind me of?". For some reason I keep coming back to the 2016 Atlanta Falcons with Kyle S as the offensive coordinator. I see some simularities at TE, WR, RB even QB. The Falcons threw a lot of passes to their backs (883 yards total). They could make the big play but could also control the clock and use the short passing game. Like SF they ran the ball a lot but, the threat of the passing game really opened up their running opportunities. The big shift for Atlanta between 2015-16 was a passing to their backs with adding another 350 plus yards. With the add of JSN and Lockett skills of getting open, ball control plays a bigger roll in keeping the opposing offense off the field, but also opening up the "Big Play" opportunities. Honestly I just can't remember a Seattle team with this much offensive firepower. From WR, to TE, RB and Geno showing he didn't "write back"
What went wrong for Geno at the end of last year? For one trying to do to much, forcing the ball and poor offensive line protection (playing from behind). So what might be different this year? More help guard to guard, JSN, unique variety and talent at RB, as well as another year and a new contract for Geno.
The other potential big difference this year is defensive help. Offensive quality goes up exponetially when the defense keeps you in the game. The big question seems to be around the league, "Did Seattle do enough to stop the run?" I think they helped themselves on the offensive side of the ball by upgrading their offense in such a way where more opponents might be playing form behind on the scoreboard in 2023, as well as having fewer offensive opportunities. I think the LB's will bring more to the party this year and the DL might surprise some. The secondary will be opportunistic and be better against the run.
Offensively Seattle will use Young more at FB or H Back. The mix and match possiblities offensively in 23, if the chemistry and scheme is right, might well take Seattle to another level.
Will Geno be offensive player of the year and MVP in 2023 (Ryan was in 16)? Even if he isn't the offense at least on paper has taken a major leap forward IMHO. Seattle's front office has worked very hard on the ingredients the last two years, and everyone knows the best cooking is dependant on that.
Within the world of government and corporate conspiracy theories, the simplest and likely the most accurate way to source the shenanigans is to 'follow the money', right? Well, within the world NFL Coordinators is to source the mentor...when we 'follow the coaching-tree', a lot can be understood.
These discussions about what to expect from Shane Waldron's Offense (or Clint Hurtt's Defense) feel pretty spot on. Lightning offense that is able to run from every angle and pass at any distance - all with a 'point guard' at QB. I too and seeing this team's clearly wanting to be as explosive as possible.
Man, they sure have been Loading up!
Really nice to hear and see you, Ken. I'm interested in the Vedic meditation you talked about. Is there a book you could recommend that talks about the 20 minutes of daily meditation ritual? I have dabbled in meditation before but have not gone too far into it and gained traction as a daily discipline. I'm a strong proponent of doing a little bit of something everyday consistently to improve in whatever endeavor it is. Ten minutes of meditation in the morning and ten minutes in the evening sounds really doable. It's not terribly time consuming and the results can be nothing but positive. There are so many meditation techniques out there. I'd like to know what meditation technique you use.
I wonder when it was decided to trade RW if the idea to swiftly retool the whole team became the vision
This may also reflect increased trust in Shane Waldron. Carroll is showing confidence in Waldron in a way he never did with Bevel or Schottenheimer.
I think Pete believed in Waldron from the start. I feel like what Pete admires most is a system he has trouble stopping and the Rams have been that. I also think he believed in Russ. For all the rah rah, I believe Pete is very analytical about how football games are won at the NFL level. The analytics of NFL point out that scoring drives are lot more likely with a gap play and awful lot of games come down to the last four minutes. Russ was as good as anyone at generating gap plays and excelled in the last four minutes. The problem was the rest of the game where Russ often struggled. In effort to fix that the Seahawks brought in Waldron. In one abbreviated season it was pretty clear that either Russ did not believe in Waldron's system could not execute the scheme. (There was great article in the Ringer last year after the trade, about Russ and Waldron that pointed out that no matter who the Seahawks offensive coordinator was the Seahawks ended up playing Russ ball.) It is anyone's guess whether Russ forced the choice or Pete did but the deal gave Waldron an opportunity.
In any event ,my belief is last year was the first time that we really saw Waldron system in action. All things considered (three rookies, a mid level quarterback, weak center and guard balanced against a second half drop off when facing better defense and adjustments), it looked pretty good. Substituting Geno for Russ, however, there was still as I saw it a system mismatch to personnel despite the upgrade in pass protection. In essence my belief is that the McVey/Waldron system focuses initially on the middle of the field to set up gap plays on the outside third of the field. Once Penny was injured the Seahawks did not have a single dominate inside player to threaten the middle of the field, and getting gap plays outside got a lot tougher because defenses could concentrate on stopping those without fear of being gashed in the middle of the field. This Seahawks year on the offensive side of the ball drafted a group of players that on paper improve the inside threat. Whether that was by design or plan B based on how the draft will likely never be known and I will always wonder if the Seahawks would have drafted Richardson if he was there. (The surest way to be an effective run the ball first team and create GAP plays is to have an elite running QB.) What I do know is that if they had drafted Richardson and I was Waldron, I would have been looking for a new job because the Seahawks sure as heck would not be looking to run my system going forward.
I won't stand by a let someone bash too hard on Scream V & VI, which still stand very comfortably toe to toe with the top end of modern studio horror. But like with the modern 'Hawks, the air of comparision to the great's of the past weighs heavily (i.e Scream & L.O.B.).
However you have to move forwards and do new things. Mix-up the formula. Scream provided two incredibly unique and surprising sequels and has locked in a really great core of actors, but ripping up the rule book just like Wes did way back when. The 'Hawks tore up the franchise in a big swing and now has it's own new core capable of defying the rules again. Until we get to the end point of these arcs we will not know how good they are. Can Scream VII stick a trilogy landing? Can the new look 'Hawks deliver a ring?
This comment probably doesn't make too much sense, but i don't have the luxury of Kens talent or full space blog to explain myself :p Just keep up the movie references, and I guess the football analysis.
Haha. I still appreciate Scream discourse. I won't get into the movies themselves too deep here just in case I ended up spoiling any of it for anyone, but as someone who has seen Scream 50 times, I probably won't see Scream 5 or 6 more than one time.
I never saw Scream and don't feel the need to. Surprisingly, I seem to feel about as strongly about the movie Captain Marvel. I will note that in that movie Carol Danvers did a major turnaround mid-movie, and then she really began to kick ass. Go Hawks!
as strongly as you
The Seahawks appear to be built to get ahead early and then stay ahead. late. To get ahead they need to be able to throw the ball because points come from the passing game. To stay ahead they have to be able to stop the passing game and control the clock by running the ball, This is a complete 180 from the Seahawks 2012 to 2018/19 where the Seahawks dominate defense coupled with explosive plays wore down the opposing team and imposed there will in the 4th quarter. The Seahawks look to impose early separate and then make the opposing team play catch up.
Kinda sounds like the Holmgren-era Seahawks way of winning.
Yep
Air Coryell
Aircor y'all
Yo Air Carroll
No question.
Pete Carroll building one of the best air attacks ("We're just trying to find the right balance") would be the greatest punk job in the NFL, ever.
Seattle native Don Cornell’s HOF induction this year was long overdue, despite never getting to a Super Bowl. He was among the most influential coaches in NFL history.
Pete's going to be in the HOF one day, too.
No doubt about it.
Good write up. Yep, our offense is rebuilt. Meet the new offense, same as the old offense. Without as many off script backyard football.
In the first half of last season, Geno was throwing to open receivers. Mostly, they were schemed open as opposed to expecting a WR to shake off his CB long enough to be open. Lockett can do that. DK not so much. Add into the mix JSN, who I believe will be the best of the bunch at shaking off coverage or finding the open spot.
Given the attention paid to the RB group, I cannot say we are preparing to pass the ball more. And if you asked Pete, he will tell you he is looking for "balance" and if you ask Geno, I think he will tell you they will take what the defense is giving. If they crowd the box, the will throw. If they sit back in two deep they will more likely run the ball. So the final stats will reflect what the defenses decide to not to protect. No one knows how that will play out, but if past is prologue then YOU may be correct.
Geno may pass for 5,000 yards this year without anyone particularly thinking we are throwing too much. We may also sport two 1,000 yard rushers. We may break the records Payton Manning set while in Denver in the year of our lord, 2013. The same year we met the Broncos in the SuperBowl. Manning set records for yards or points or both. We crushed them in the SB 43-8.
So if we get to the SB, don't expect a win this year.
If we get to the SB with our powerful offense and a middling defense, like the Broncos were, we won't be facing the Legion of Boom. Also, we'll have to be sure Olu is taught to be patient on our first first down and not hike the ball while Geno is talking to a wide out.
I think the narrative that Pete wants a run heavy offense has always been incredibly overblown. Pete wants to win & that always boils down to ANY combination that creates more points for you and less points for them. I see this offense being constructed to be versatile & balanced but with the ability to be explosive IF the opportunity is there but not forced if it's not (like the "Let Russ Cook" offenses that always wanted to be explosive). To accomplish that you have to get guys who are talented but buy into winning over their stats. Geno may turn into an all world guy like Mahomes & Brady, but Pete wants an offense that can win whether he is all world, great or really good.
You make good points, but I'd add: instead of run heavy offense, Pete wants ball control. He wants to keep the ball from the other team, and wear opposing defenses out. So he'd like to run more, but knows predictable offenses get shut down.
Pete likes being physical, and running the ball accomplishes that. He wants to get to the 4th quarter seeing the other team tired. Sadly, the last few years, it's happened to HIS defense.
So hoping this year the script gets flipped.
Pete also wants improvement on 3rd down. I think the Smith-Ngiba and Charbonnet draft picks especially attest to that. I also see us using McIntosh on third down when we need about 5 yards, as he can protect Geno or go out to the flat for a quick throw, depending on what Geno sees the defense doing.
Good point. Pete wants an offense that can run the ball whenever they want to, but if they maintain winning while passing, he's fine with that. It's the times they've stalled out in the passing game, and then couldn't run it either, that has led to his most blatant comments about being able to run the ball.
And the Russ years weren't passing light at much as thought, Russ just would get 200 or 300 yards on 20-25 attempts because of deep balls, instead of 30+. Same distance traveled, just fewer plays to do it.
So we'll see. Hawk's Nest podcast guy used the term amoeba offense, able to shift form at will to take advantage of the opponent's weakness. That's my hope. Able to run it 40 times in a grind it out game in bad weather, or win a passing shootout against Cincy, Dallas, or Philly.
I don't know what to expect from Geno this season. The contract was a lot better than I was braced for, and I'm hoping he hits every incentive and starts again in '24 -but at least there's an easy out if his play doesn't hold up. I feel like he will be the key to how far this team goes. And he's stocked with weapons and what should be a good line and running game. With any luck, Lock will have a great preseason and look capable of starting should Geno struggle or get injured. I'm even less confident that will happen, though.
Geno Smith doesn't need to be as good as Burrow because he has the natural advantage of a stronger arm. But he needs to be the best QB in the NFC (a tall order, but not a skyscraper one like it would be in the AFC) if we want to make to the Superb Owl.
A tall order but attainable. In my opinion, Geno is much closer to being the best QB in the NFC than many fans and talking heads are projecting. If he cuts down on his mental errors I would think he is pretty close. Also, the OC has to have a better plan for when the defense adjusts at halftime. As I see it, and I am no expert, during the second half of the season, last year, the defenses made adjustments at halftime that took away some of Geno's options and the OC didn't adjust to what the defenses were doing. And the team didn't respond in such a way to negate those adjustments. But the AFC has some awfully good young guns at QB and Geno would be more hard pressed to break into the upper tier of those elite QBs.
The AFC is loaded. This is a list of AFC QBs that are probably better than any in the NFC:
- Mahomes
- Burrow
- Herbert
- Goldilocks
- Allen
- Watson if he plays like before
- Rodgers if he's not washed
- Wilson if he goes back to last decade Russ form
- A healthy Tua
- A healthy Lamar Jackson
That's 1/4+ of the AFC starters. And while the NFC got the best rookie QB, the AFC got the other 3 of the top 4.
Even so, if Geno is as ready as PCJS seem to think he is and given the weapons he has, I’d be comfortable with going up any team in this group except KC or Cincinnati.