Ugly, ugly game. Geno deserves much blame, but this was a team wide collapse. The first quarter seemed fairly even, two good defenses containing the offenses. Then the Ravens figured something out and the Hawks didn’t. I still think the inability to find a run game is a big factor and also surprising. They spent high draft choices on good RBs and then ask Geno to throw rather than pounding the ball. Even if it still resulted in 3 and outs it would eat up clock which would lessen the time the defense was on the field. Plus we’ve already seen K9 and Charbs get stopped a few times and then break off a 20-30 yard run. I watched UW Saturday with a leading Heisman candidate commit to the run and get over 300 yards rushing. And then I watched the Ravens do it to the Hawks. It starts with good rushing and then Geno can be an effective complement, but he can’t carry a team.
JSN led all receivers yesterday, which is encouraging progress for him, but that lessened the 2 TE sets which were the most successful rushing sets. I don’t care if people thought the multiple TE sets were gimmicky in today’s NFL because they were working. Yesterday’s game plan was less gimmickry, but didn’t work worth a damn.
Having said all of that-losing by 34 doesn’t hurt the record any more than losing by one and it might be an easier loss for the players to get over. They were steamrolled and know it . No one play changed the outcome, unlike against Cincinnati. Sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug. The Hawks are 5-3 and in control of their own playoff destiny. Beat the 49s and the teams they are expected to beat and they probably win the division. If that happens it will be because they learned something from this awful game and will then have as good a chance as any NFC team. Don’t do it, then big changes are coming.
A lot of words not to address the OC situation. There is a lot more evidence to suggest that Geno is a decent qb who will be hard to replace with a better qb than to suggest the same for Shane Waldron. Yep, he missed some throws, the missed td to DK the most egregious. No excuse on that. But the game plan was awful. The Vikings brought Dobbs in and in one day had a scheme for him to put 24 points on the board. JD is not great. Perhaps the Vikings got the right McVay disciple. The change starts there.
Well, these are fair points, but they don't really touch on what I at least think is the most important point--Carroll and Schneider don't understand their own team. That is the ONLY way I can explain the Williams trade, in view of what happened in Baltimore yesterday. The Hawks are re-building. They need all the picks they can get. They aren't any more "one player away" now than they were when they traded for Jamal Adams. Yet Pete's unique combination of periodically "hormonal" positive thinking and belief that he can talk players with sheer will into being better than they are continues to mess with the re-building necessary to be great again. And Schneider is apparently of no help to counter Pete's hormones. This is a failure of calm, careful and deliberate leadership and vision, from the top.
We'll find out next week whether this game was an outlier, or that the Ravens exposed us. Just a few observations.
- We will have significant injury issues on the defense if they continue to play as many snaps each game as they have been. It's not sustainable. Even if we somehow manage to avoid significant lost games to injury, the poor tackling and/or late game collapses may become more common. It's all about 3rd down efficiency on both sides of the ball, and being able to run the ball on offense.
- When you have a 50% pressure rate, I don't care who you put in at QB, they will not be successful. Geno did not play well at all, and the turnovers are concerning. But Tom Brady would not play well if pressured half the time. And, pressured by a 4 man rush for the most part, so more players playing coverage than running routes. You're kidding yourself if you think that changing QB's will make the offense function better. A much lower pressure rate will make ANY quarterback look better.
- We need to find our running game. It's the one thing that will address the number of snaps the defense is playing, improve our 3rd down play, and lower the pressure rate on the QB. I would spend a significant amount of time this week sorting out where the problems are. A lot of flowers have been thrown at Andy Dickerson this year, and to some degree it is warranted. But, let's not forget that we haven't run the ball well all year, and what success we have had is regularly on the skill of the running backs, not necessarily because they are running through holes the o-line has opened up.
So much chat about Geno, as if he was ever viewed by the franchise as a long term QB (I don't think he ever was seriously viewed as the long term rather a bridge to the 2024 Draft which was known two years ago to be a potentially deep QB one).
I want to, again, harp on about Waldron and the play calling. 15 Runs is just not enough. A big part of the issue was the HUGE imbalance in Time of Possession. Now I can concede the Run on those 15 plays didn't breakout, but it's the story of the season - Geno cannot throw 30 times, cannot be relied upon to pick apart a defence expecting him to throw. All of Geno's best games come off the base of even a functional run, or the threat of a run.
The actual scheming from Waldron looks good on paper, but the called plays out of those formations doesn't follow through on the potential. And this has been a pattern for all three of his OC seasons. Looks good on paper, lacking in substance on the field. I am happy to try Lock, happy to draft a new QB, but giving them the same offence & plays will only lead ultimately to the same results.
Has been my theme for a while that the coaching is letting down the players. We have some good coaches, but with the exception of Mafe and flashes on the OLine i struggle to think of a player who's improved over 2022. Talent & flashes can get us to the post-season, but as I keep again saying, I want more than that. We must stamp authority on the Moons and get revenge on the Rams, must!
There is ugly. There is cat butt ugly. And there is what the Hawks left on the field today.
I think the Geno experiment is over.Less than a 50% completion rate. No touchdowns. Third down efficiency non existing . Three to one time of possession differential. Looks down his receivers, holds the ball too long and is a turn over machine. What possibly could go wrong ?
Since the middle of last season, he is mediocre at best. Could Lock do any worse?
Hawks have to draft a QB in this once in a decade class, realizing that Geno’s not getting any better!
This team needs some O line help and a franchise QB to go far in the playoffs. After today's nightmare maybe Pete and John get a reality check.
When I think of the saying “they crapped the bed” THIS game is now what I’ll think of.
I could not have been more wrong in my vision. I need to work on that vision thing JUST LIKE THE SEAHAWKS NEED TO WORK ON TACKLING! Jeez...that was the saddest tackling exhibition I’ve ever seen. And they were ALL involved. Off the top of my head I recall missed tackles by nearly every Seahawk defensive starter.
Geno has GOT to get the ball out faster, over opposing linemen, and not straight to defenders.
It seemed like ALL of the Seahawks were at least a step slow. Maybe two.
If the team’s gonna have a truly bad game, at least it was a total team effort.
I feel like I'm in repeat mode as well! The tackling was Very, Very bad overall and again I saw GAP responsibility out the window in many cases. But what I want to see addressed is the fact the O-line has had little to no cohesiveness due to injuries, and I think they should go with the rook over Haynes from now on. I'll keep saying this till the end of time. I don't care how good your so-called Skilled players are, without at least a decent O-line you're going to get what we just saw. Ok, I'm also not saying Seattle can't have a decent O-line but playing against that style of D they need to have a Fullback in the game and better play calling to start with! If they cannot figure out how to run the ball better moving forward, the rest of the season is going to be a long, long miserable event!
Great commentary and OBJECTIVE comments Kenneth. On the O side, until Something changes at QB, what we saw today is what we have (loved your comment on all the batted passes). Tackling. The number one basic on football as we know it. If you cannot tackle as a team, you WILL LOOSE. Great example today. Run game. There was NO run game. Do we need a healthy and consistent (player wish) O line, you bet. We have the potential to have one of the best O lines, but we need health and consistency. I could go on, but why. Kenneth said it all best
The Seahawks got outplayed on both sides of the ball but the defense did start the game playing well...for two drives, which was giving me hope early on. But on the second Seahawks drive when it started to become clear the Ravens were successfully shutting down the Seahawks run game, I knew we were in huge trouble. However, I didn't expect the game to get that far out of hand.
It's probably not going to happen but I want them to start Lock ASAP just so we can move on from the topic as soon as possible. Either he's the next Great White Hope or he's not but I want this festering wound of which back-up QB is better tabled sooner than later and not have it go all the way through to next August. Geno signed a bridge QB contract but I won't be surprised when he's cut.
We know what we have in Geno. Simply put, he’s a QB we could win with (if the rest of the team was good enough) but he’s not a QB we will we because of, and he never will be. The perfect QB in a run dominant offense that throws 23 or 25 times a game and doesnt turn it over. He’d be perfect for the 2013 Seahawks, if not for his turnover problems. Which seem to be getting worse.
Continuing to roll Geno out there doesn’t seem like a great solution. We can be a fringe playoff team that will make an early exit. Lock is an unknown. It would appear possible that he has a higher ceiling than Geno, but a lower floor is a very real possibility. If “always compete” isn’t just a slogan Pete needs to give Lock a shot at rejuvenating this offense. At the very least use him like Taysom Hill and see what he has to show us. Or sit Geno for a few weeks and see what we’ve got. They can always say he has an injury if they want to protect his ego.
To me the real question is whether the Seahawks are focused on this season or the long run. Personally I don’t think they are a real contender yet, but the Leonard Williams deal says John and Pete think otherwise. If it’s about the long run, they need to see what they have in Lock.
I'm beyond frustrated with this team. I'm frustrated that we traded a second and a fifth for a brief rental of a veteran who's not even that good. That trade was beyond stupid. That should be obvious to everyone tonight.
I'm beyond frustrated that Carroll is too stubborn to give Lock a chance in the third quarter, when the Ravens were still trying, and it was clear Geno was toast. Why not give him a chance? Sure, maybe he's no better than Geno. But he played a great preseason and led the team on a successful scoring drive when Geno was injured in the regular season. Was there any reason to not give him a chance? Not even in garbage time? I can't help but suspect that Carroll's afraid to look like a stubborn old fool for not giving him a chance sooner.
What else? This wasn't just a loss, as Carroll and the players tried to say in their post-game press conferences. Just play harder, regroup and we'll be fine. No, it was an unmasking. One so bad even one of the announcers called it "an old fashioned tushy kicking". When the guys who are supposed to convince you there's reason to keep watching runs out of ways to lie, and when the game is interrupted on the east coast to cut to another game, it's hard to find anything positive.
Having said that, if this debacle were to cause Carroll to start Lock against the Commanders, it would be worth it. Chances of that happening? I know. But Carroll could, at least in theory, prove me wrong. Show us, Pete, that you're not too old, stubborn and crotchety to be an NFL head coach in 2023. That would be beyond welcome. Might even convince me I was wrong about it being well past time to hire a younger, more offensive minded guy.
Nov 6, 2023·edited Nov 6, 2023Liked by Seaside Joe
About the Geno thing. I just don't get it. My question is how many guys do you think are better? I certainly understand Mahomes, Burrow, Allen. But after that I am just not too sure. Blaming everything on the QB also runs the risk of letting some real issues go unaddressed. Also, I do not think any QB Mahomes, Brady, Marino could win with the team that trotted out there today.
Overall, Geno is not a great QB but can play that way at times. Geno is not a bad QB but can play that way at times. So what does that make him? He is somewhere around 5-15 best QB in the league. Here are the numbers:
FACTS
Since 2022 Geno is 11th in EPA+CPOE composite
In 2023 he is 15th in QBR and 15th in QB rating.
When the Hawks won the SB in 2013 RW was the 6th best QB in the league by EPA+CPOE.
Does Geno need to be better? You bet. So if someone tells me its time for Drew Lock ... That means that you believe that a 10-15 best QB in the league can't win. And this includes guys like Brock Purdy who is clearly a bottom tier QB playing on a really good team (look at Jimmy G).
I am a big Lock fan and believe that he is plan A for the future which could come this offseason. But, we are football team in first place and a great shot at making the playoffs. If you put Lock in and he is actually bad ... You throw that opportunity away.
The great thing about Geno is you know that he is extremely accurate, very efficient in play action, and very efficient from a clean pocket. So the question in my mind is less about Geno and more about: can you run the ball? Can you keep the pocket clean? And receivers ... catch the damn ball when it is thrown to you especially on third down.
Postgame interview had Pete refusing to even discuss Geno. He may need to pay attention to what the former players have said about him protecting Russell to the detriment of team morale. Postgame Geno is full of "that was on me," and "I need to do better." But, before the game he has the nerve to call himself EXCELLENT and is numb to noticing Lockett dumbfounded and unable to respond to that self-assessment. We've never heard Lockett, who is EXCELLENT, put that label on himself and then go out and miss every catch.
I've worked for bosses who were low performers and they just don't generate the incentive to anyone to carry them to glory knowing they will get the raise and the glowing review when the team achieves success. Geno needs Pete to come down hard on him rather than protect his fragile ego at the risk of him getting worse.
Ugly, ugly game. Geno deserves much blame, but this was a team wide collapse. The first quarter seemed fairly even, two good defenses containing the offenses. Then the Ravens figured something out and the Hawks didn’t. I still think the inability to find a run game is a big factor and also surprising. They spent high draft choices on good RBs and then ask Geno to throw rather than pounding the ball. Even if it still resulted in 3 and outs it would eat up clock which would lessen the time the defense was on the field. Plus we’ve already seen K9 and Charbs get stopped a few times and then break off a 20-30 yard run. I watched UW Saturday with a leading Heisman candidate commit to the run and get over 300 yards rushing. And then I watched the Ravens do it to the Hawks. It starts with good rushing and then Geno can be an effective complement, but he can’t carry a team.
JSN led all receivers yesterday, which is encouraging progress for him, but that lessened the 2 TE sets which were the most successful rushing sets. I don’t care if people thought the multiple TE sets were gimmicky in today’s NFL because they were working. Yesterday’s game plan was less gimmickry, but didn’t work worth a damn.
Having said all of that-losing by 34 doesn’t hurt the record any more than losing by one and it might be an easier loss for the players to get over. They were steamrolled and know it . No one play changed the outcome, unlike against Cincinnati. Sometimes you’re the windshield, sometimes you’re the bug. The Hawks are 5-3 and in control of their own playoff destiny. Beat the 49s and the teams they are expected to beat and they probably win the division. If that happens it will be because they learned something from this awful game and will then have as good a chance as any NFC team. Don’t do it, then big changes are coming.
A lot of words not to address the OC situation. There is a lot more evidence to suggest that Geno is a decent qb who will be hard to replace with a better qb than to suggest the same for Shane Waldron. Yep, he missed some throws, the missed td to DK the most egregious. No excuse on that. But the game plan was awful. The Vikings brought Dobbs in and in one day had a scheme for him to put 24 points on the board. JD is not great. Perhaps the Vikings got the right McVay disciple. The change starts there.
Well, these are fair points, but they don't really touch on what I at least think is the most important point--Carroll and Schneider don't understand their own team. That is the ONLY way I can explain the Williams trade, in view of what happened in Baltimore yesterday. The Hawks are re-building. They need all the picks they can get. They aren't any more "one player away" now than they were when they traded for Jamal Adams. Yet Pete's unique combination of periodically "hormonal" positive thinking and belief that he can talk players with sheer will into being better than they are continues to mess with the re-building necessary to be great again. And Schneider is apparently of no help to counter Pete's hormones. This is a failure of calm, careful and deliberate leadership and vision, from the top.
We'll find out next week whether this game was an outlier, or that the Ravens exposed us. Just a few observations.
- We will have significant injury issues on the defense if they continue to play as many snaps each game as they have been. It's not sustainable. Even if we somehow manage to avoid significant lost games to injury, the poor tackling and/or late game collapses may become more common. It's all about 3rd down efficiency on both sides of the ball, and being able to run the ball on offense.
- When you have a 50% pressure rate, I don't care who you put in at QB, they will not be successful. Geno did not play well at all, and the turnovers are concerning. But Tom Brady would not play well if pressured half the time. And, pressured by a 4 man rush for the most part, so more players playing coverage than running routes. You're kidding yourself if you think that changing QB's will make the offense function better. A much lower pressure rate will make ANY quarterback look better.
- We need to find our running game. It's the one thing that will address the number of snaps the defense is playing, improve our 3rd down play, and lower the pressure rate on the QB. I would spend a significant amount of time this week sorting out where the problems are. A lot of flowers have been thrown at Andy Dickerson this year, and to some degree it is warranted. But, let's not forget that we haven't run the ball well all year, and what success we have had is regularly on the skill of the running backs, not necessarily because they are running through holes the o-line has opened up.
So much chat about Geno, as if he was ever viewed by the franchise as a long term QB (I don't think he ever was seriously viewed as the long term rather a bridge to the 2024 Draft which was known two years ago to be a potentially deep QB one).
I want to, again, harp on about Waldron and the play calling. 15 Runs is just not enough. A big part of the issue was the HUGE imbalance in Time of Possession. Now I can concede the Run on those 15 plays didn't breakout, but it's the story of the season - Geno cannot throw 30 times, cannot be relied upon to pick apart a defence expecting him to throw. All of Geno's best games come off the base of even a functional run, or the threat of a run.
The actual scheming from Waldron looks good on paper, but the called plays out of those formations doesn't follow through on the potential. And this has been a pattern for all three of his OC seasons. Looks good on paper, lacking in substance on the field. I am happy to try Lock, happy to draft a new QB, but giving them the same offence & plays will only lead ultimately to the same results.
Has been my theme for a while that the coaching is letting down the players. We have some good coaches, but with the exception of Mafe and flashes on the OLine i struggle to think of a player who's improved over 2022. Talent & flashes can get us to the post-season, but as I keep again saying, I want more than that. We must stamp authority on the Moons and get revenge on the Rams, must!
There is ugly. There is cat butt ugly. And there is what the Hawks left on the field today.
I think the Geno experiment is over.Less than a 50% completion rate. No touchdowns. Third down efficiency non existing . Three to one time of possession differential. Looks down his receivers, holds the ball too long and is a turn over machine. What possibly could go wrong ?
Since the middle of last season, he is mediocre at best. Could Lock do any worse?
Hawks have to draft a QB in this once in a decade class, realizing that Geno’s not getting any better!
This team needs some O line help and a franchise QB to go far in the playoffs. After today's nightmare maybe Pete and John get a reality check.
When I think of the saying “they crapped the bed” THIS game is now what I’ll think of.
I could not have been more wrong in my vision. I need to work on that vision thing JUST LIKE THE SEAHAWKS NEED TO WORK ON TACKLING! Jeez...that was the saddest tackling exhibition I’ve ever seen. And they were ALL involved. Off the top of my head I recall missed tackles by nearly every Seahawk defensive starter.
Geno has GOT to get the ball out faster, over opposing linemen, and not straight to defenders.
It seemed like ALL of the Seahawks were at least a step slow. Maybe two.
If the team’s gonna have a truly bad game, at least it was a total team effort.
I feel like I'm in repeat mode as well! The tackling was Very, Very bad overall and again I saw GAP responsibility out the window in many cases. But what I want to see addressed is the fact the O-line has had little to no cohesiveness due to injuries, and I think they should go with the rook over Haynes from now on. I'll keep saying this till the end of time. I don't care how good your so-called Skilled players are, without at least a decent O-line you're going to get what we just saw. Ok, I'm also not saying Seattle can't have a decent O-line but playing against that style of D they need to have a Fullback in the game and better play calling to start with! If they cannot figure out how to run the ball better moving forward, the rest of the season is going to be a long, long miserable event!
Great commentary and OBJECTIVE comments Kenneth. On the O side, until Something changes at QB, what we saw today is what we have (loved your comment on all the batted passes). Tackling. The number one basic on football as we know it. If you cannot tackle as a team, you WILL LOOSE. Great example today. Run game. There was NO run game. Do we need a healthy and consistent (player wish) O line, you bet. We have the potential to have one of the best O lines, but we need health and consistency. I could go on, but why. Kenneth said it all best
The Seahawks got outplayed on both sides of the ball but the defense did start the game playing well...for two drives, which was giving me hope early on. But on the second Seahawks drive when it started to become clear the Ravens were successfully shutting down the Seahawks run game, I knew we were in huge trouble. However, I didn't expect the game to get that far out of hand.
It's probably not going to happen but I want them to start Lock ASAP just so we can move on from the topic as soon as possible. Either he's the next Great White Hope or he's not but I want this festering wound of which back-up QB is better tabled sooner than later and not have it go all the way through to next August. Geno signed a bridge QB contract but I won't be surprised when he's cut.
We know what we have in Geno. Simply put, he’s a QB we could win with (if the rest of the team was good enough) but he’s not a QB we will we because of, and he never will be. The perfect QB in a run dominant offense that throws 23 or 25 times a game and doesnt turn it over. He’d be perfect for the 2013 Seahawks, if not for his turnover problems. Which seem to be getting worse.
Continuing to roll Geno out there doesn’t seem like a great solution. We can be a fringe playoff team that will make an early exit. Lock is an unknown. It would appear possible that he has a higher ceiling than Geno, but a lower floor is a very real possibility. If “always compete” isn’t just a slogan Pete needs to give Lock a shot at rejuvenating this offense. At the very least use him like Taysom Hill and see what he has to show us. Or sit Geno for a few weeks and see what we’ve got. They can always say he has an injury if they want to protect his ego.
To me the real question is whether the Seahawks are focused on this season or the long run. Personally I don’t think they are a real contender yet, but the Leonard Williams deal says John and Pete think otherwise. If it’s about the long run, they need to see what they have in Lock.
I'm beyond frustrated with this team. I'm frustrated that we traded a second and a fifth for a brief rental of a veteran who's not even that good. That trade was beyond stupid. That should be obvious to everyone tonight.
I'm beyond frustrated that Carroll is too stubborn to give Lock a chance in the third quarter, when the Ravens were still trying, and it was clear Geno was toast. Why not give him a chance? Sure, maybe he's no better than Geno. But he played a great preseason and led the team on a successful scoring drive when Geno was injured in the regular season. Was there any reason to not give him a chance? Not even in garbage time? I can't help but suspect that Carroll's afraid to look like a stubborn old fool for not giving him a chance sooner.
What else? This wasn't just a loss, as Carroll and the players tried to say in their post-game press conferences. Just play harder, regroup and we'll be fine. No, it was an unmasking. One so bad even one of the announcers called it "an old fashioned tushy kicking". When the guys who are supposed to convince you there's reason to keep watching runs out of ways to lie, and when the game is interrupted on the east coast to cut to another game, it's hard to find anything positive.
Having said that, if this debacle were to cause Carroll to start Lock against the Commanders, it would be worth it. Chances of that happening? I know. But Carroll could, at least in theory, prove me wrong. Show us, Pete, that you're not too old, stubborn and crotchety to be an NFL head coach in 2023. That would be beyond welcome. Might even convince me I was wrong about it being well past time to hire a younger, more offensive minded guy.
The Raiders replaced their QB this week and won by a nice big margin. Just sayin'
About the Geno thing. I just don't get it. My question is how many guys do you think are better? I certainly understand Mahomes, Burrow, Allen. But after that I am just not too sure. Blaming everything on the QB also runs the risk of letting some real issues go unaddressed. Also, I do not think any QB Mahomes, Brady, Marino could win with the team that trotted out there today.
Overall, Geno is not a great QB but can play that way at times. Geno is not a bad QB but can play that way at times. So what does that make him? He is somewhere around 5-15 best QB in the league. Here are the numbers:
FACTS
Since 2022 Geno is 11th in EPA+CPOE composite
In 2023 he is 15th in QBR and 15th in QB rating.
When the Hawks won the SB in 2013 RW was the 6th best QB in the league by EPA+CPOE.
Does Geno need to be better? You bet. So if someone tells me its time for Drew Lock ... That means that you believe that a 10-15 best QB in the league can't win. And this includes guys like Brock Purdy who is clearly a bottom tier QB playing on a really good team (look at Jimmy G).
I am a big Lock fan and believe that he is plan A for the future which could come this offseason. But, we are football team in first place and a great shot at making the playoffs. If you put Lock in and he is actually bad ... You throw that opportunity away.
The great thing about Geno is you know that he is extremely accurate, very efficient in play action, and very efficient from a clean pocket. So the question in my mind is less about Geno and more about: can you run the ball? Can you keep the pocket clean? And receivers ... catch the damn ball when it is thrown to you especially on third down.
Peace and love to all opinions.
Go Hawks!
Postgame interview had Pete refusing to even discuss Geno. He may need to pay attention to what the former players have said about him protecting Russell to the detriment of team morale. Postgame Geno is full of "that was on me," and "I need to do better." But, before the game he has the nerve to call himself EXCELLENT and is numb to noticing Lockett dumbfounded and unable to respond to that self-assessment. We've never heard Lockett, who is EXCELLENT, put that label on himself and then go out and miss every catch.
I've worked for bosses who were low performers and they just don't generate the incentive to anyone to carry them to glory knowing they will get the raise and the glowing review when the team achieves success. Geno needs Pete to come down hard on him rather than protect his fragile ego at the risk of him getting worse.
Geno “plays the quarterback position as well as anyone in the league”.
If that’s true, the NFL is in crisis.
Absolutely. He was a good QB for the money last year. He won't be a good QB for the money next year.