To me, there’s a threshold performance level the offensive line needs to reach. The 2005 Seahawks OLine was legendary with two HOF guys. I don’t remember who was on the 2013 line (maybe I’m a bad fan), but you just need enough protection, you don’t need the best protection. And you just need enough run blocking.
I had to edit it out for space, but I referenced the 2005 and 2013 offensive lines as examples of how the Seahawks are capable of having a good offensive line...right before they then decide to blow it up because they didn't want to pay a guard or center.
It is possible they kept Sundell to back up Olu if Williams isn’t ready.. that would kind of make sense, as would waiving him onto the PS once Williams is ready to go.
I suspect Mack is establishing the essential qualities he demands if you want a future here. It'll be a high bar and Coach will fight like hell to keep those who own this. Your potential is now a Given, just by still being on the team. If the Vets buy in, watch out!
- I didn't want to pile on, but I do not expect that George Fant is going to be very good. We have all these other positions on the line that are kind of distracting us away from RT, but we barely know anything about how Fant has looked. Even if he looked good, nobody wanted Fant as a starter despite starting for the Texans last year. Why was that? But I don't think it matters as much if Fant is below-average if the rest of the offensive line can be above-average. Or Maybe Fant's gonna be good, who knows.
- Scheme should help and Grubb's usage of other positions as blockers should help. Seen some good blocking by TEs and WRs so far.
- Guards and centers especially can break out in year 3, year 4...I'm not at all giving up on guys like Bradford.
I am not too concerned about Fant given he is RT since it is relatively easy to scheme a chip by a RB or TE to help if he is overmatched. If he was at LT, not good.
The thing about a Good O-line is it actually takes some time for them to learn together to become good. Having a center that actually knows the position and has a very good track record ( assuming health) is a Huge plus. Since I believe that position is as important as LT in the grand scheme of things with an O-line. Go Hawks!
So it’s been 11 years since they’ve had anything like a dominant O-line. When RW was on a rookie deal. But you don’t have to run the trenches this way. Because somehow other teams that have gotten a lot deeper into the playoffs and beyond than Seattle have built their teams around protecting the QB, and then using just about any guy at RB, only 1-2 decent receivers and one star, and a very good to HoF QB. That’s simplifying a lot. And it doesn’t get you all the way to the promised land. But it’s worth pointing out ownership *(Schneider’s) cheapness on OL is a hazard other teams avoid. It’s by no means a cure. The Cowboys have spent heavily for years on this and remain stuck. And because of Joe Burrow Cincy managed to suck at OL for a while and they still did exceptionally well. But Geno isn’t Burrow. He’s not quite as quick with his release or his reads. And when he’s rushed he’ll make mistakes. And no team runs well without at least an OK OL. So it’s a space to continue to watch, as SSJ has rightly pointed out.
Geno also isn't paid like Burrow. They have had him on a favorable contract for a couple years, now, and still had the same philosophy of spending less on the OL. I love your observation about how teams have built contenders. 1st thing that comes to my mind in a comparison is that we have spent so much more draft capital on RB than those other teams. I have been ok with the Charbs pick, but am starting to think maybe we have gone too far in the direction of BPA in the draft or at least waiting too late to address the needs. Maybe Haynes pans out and proves that the 3rd rd is a good place to start, but there are guys around the league playing well that we passed on at some point. We might need to start taking advantage of Geno's friendly contract by investing the savings into protecting him, so he doesn't end up wanting to leave to avoid taking a beating. Maybe we are on that road already with using MM's scheme to help the defense, and can now invest in OL more.
What's the point of having a great OLine when Russ scrambles all over the backfield? How do you design for that? No doubt it pissed off the Big Guys, but then he was pulling TDs out of nowhere and winning last second games. It had Pete riding the tiger. "Scramble left" or Scramble right" wasn't jelling. Why create a pocket if he doesn't stay in it? So Pete said, 'screw it' and OLine skills took a backseat to Russ's antics.
Get the five best target neutralizers out there and let's get them time to work together in game situations. We don't have to pancake the defense every play, just block them enough to effectively run the play at reasonable success rate. Easier said then done...
Well, we kinda did that the last couple of years.... OL rated terribly, not spent on, yet the offense still carried the team to the brink of the playoffs. With the MikeMac hire, we try to squeeze more out of the defense with a new scheme and get a little better on OL each year and maybe we're onto something
Without at least a competent O-line the chances of getting to a SB and especially winning are not very good. The one thing about O-linemen is that they are the most resigned draft choices of any position in the league (That is overall ,not per team.) I believe that says something, if the majority of teams are looking at that and following that trend.
I’m still MUCH more excited about this year’s Oline than what the Seahawks fielded in ‘23. To me, it appears more athletic, and more importantly, healthier (even accounting for Lucas) with a higher upside for performance.
I don’t really care if the team isn’t going to announce the starting RG until game time. We’re talked by about a rookie and a 2nd year player. I get why the coaches might want to see who’s looking best a week from now before settling on who starts.
I think the team has only had one dominant Oline…2005. The SB winning team had an adequate line but to me it wasn’t great. At best, decent. And that’s where I think the ‘24 Oline could net out.
Standard disclaimer: I’m always HUGELY optimistic right before the season starts. Every. Single. Year.
Me too, Rusty. My hope this year is we come out and play smart and clever, then find dominance as the clock ticks down. Last year, we were the baddest kids on the block until we found our own nose broken. Confidence is hard to find when you can't see shit.
I'm still relatively optimistic for 7-to-9 wins. But if everything goes to hell due to lack of personnel, I'm ok with it as long as the new regime maintains their & overall team composure and reloads in 2025.
My dad sometimes reused an old saying, "the more times change, the more they remain the same." As usual, unproven D & O lines, with yet another "guess who" center. A mystery LB corps, except for Nwosu - oh yeah, he's injured. And that's when the D unraveled in 2023.
Except for O skill guys & defensive backfield, Hawk O line, D line & LB talent looks thin in 2024.
There's some talented 1's, the 2's don't have a track record. Expecting no injuries is unexpected!
Lots of hopes that will temper my disappointment if 2024 doesn't repeat the '22 O line fairy tail season
I hope Connor WIlliams miracle recovery withstands the rigors of 17 games, I hope Fant is a good enough RT starter to help cover when the mystery RG gets picked on. I hope Fant stays healthy so I don't have to watch outside rushers blow past Stone Forsythe (& then hear how Geno sucks). I hope Olu gets enough experience spelling Williams to become a pro anchor. I hope Lucas' rehab goes well enough that he wins the RT job in 2025, not counting on 2024 at all.
Re Geno's performance & O line - I think it's the O line that makes Geno better, less so the other way around. Geno's a pocket passer, not an escape artist. As the pocket goes, so goes Geno - '22 good pocket, good Geno. '23 not as good pocket, Geno wasn't as good.
Getting Fant is better than wishing for Lucas, but it's still another wait-and-see O line.
One overall advantage MM & Hawks have is opponents have no film on the 2024 Hawks. Opp game plans for a few weeks, will be educated guesses. If the Hawks mostly know what they're doing like 1st half of Browns pre-season game, and opponents don't know what to expect, it could be worth points and a win or 2!
As an inveterate worrier about the Hawks OL, my biggest worry is whether Tomlinson, Fant (& Forsythe when needed) have the necessary athleticism to deal with younger/faster DLs. Even when (if?) Lucas returns has he permanently lost a step or two in speed or quickness? When I’m optimistic I hope that Haynes is close to NFL-ready (or a possible star rookie) and that the OL’s mix of vets and 2nd/3rd year players might be the right recipe to gel effectively as a unit. A good OL (just in the middle statistically) is most always more than the sum of its parts.
A few of beliefs I have: 1) Seahawks are a jelly donut (soft in the middle) when it comes to the o-line, 2) John and Pete were aligned when it came to the O-line; and 3) whether the hope for a better Seahawks o-line hangs on whether Williams and Lucas can return to form after career threatening injuries. So I have some hope but I am not getting my hopes up. My beliefs are informed by my own eyes and Seaside Joe.
Building an NFL O-line is a tricky business. There is not enough talent to go around, and there are a lot of positions to fill, so teams rarely let the good ones go. When they do hit the market, solid starters (like Lewis) are getting paid like pro-bowl players and difficult choices must be made. If Williams has a good year, we'll have to stay at the top of the center market to keep him. We may have to reset the LT market to keep Cross when the time comes. It could get really expensive really soon, and I don't think JS is unwilling to make those financial commitments to the O-Line, he just hasn't had a player worthy of it in quite some time.
It's like JS's track record of not drafting QBs. He's not opposed to drafting a 1rst round QB, but he's not going to do it for a 3rd round talent. He's not opposed to paying O-linemen, but he's not going to pay a mediocre guard like an established pro-bowl veteran. He's not going to pay $18million/year for a strong safety to play linebacker... oh, never mind that last part.
Everyone seems to forget that much of the 2013 line was manned by JR Sweezy (first year coverted D-Line guy at guard), the infamous Paul McQuistan filling both guard and tackle rolls often due to injuries (he sucked), Breno (another penalty), Max (all pro) and Okung his one time pro bowl year at LT. He was also hurt some that year. James Carpenter hurt often at left guard. They did not excel at Pass Pro and as far as run blocking they had a tank called Marshawn and FB MIke Robinson. The back ups were nothing to write home about either. They were also near the top in penalty yards. Sweezy actually went on to play pretty good for the colts years later at guard. What I'm saying is that Seattle may have a better line this year than 2013 if Williams pans out and Cross takes another step forward which is sounds like his has this year at camp.. The last time Seattle had a notable offensive line was under Holmgren.
Just going by my FEELINGS since I didn't read the article for 100% comprehension, or at least that is what I am feeling, this article is too depressing. That's OK. Life isn't a bowl of cherries. Yet, I am going to ignore this article since it is bringing me down.
It's like having a dentist appointment and dreading that future every time my tongue slides over my broken tooth. What a waste of FEAR. Our OL may end up injured and struggling ... or not. We don't know. Last year is not this year, and we could just as easily surprised to the upside. Until proven otherwise, I am going with that.
To me, there’s a threshold performance level the offensive line needs to reach. The 2005 Seahawks OLine was legendary with two HOF guys. I don’t remember who was on the 2013 line (maybe I’m a bad fan), but you just need enough protection, you don’t need the best protection. And you just need enough run blocking.
I had to edit it out for space, but I referenced the 2005 and 2013 offensive lines as examples of how the Seahawks are capable of having a good offensive line...right before they then decide to blow it up because they didn't want to pay a guard or center.
or even a left tackle til pushed to the brink of liquefied QB...
This is why I don’t have an issue with Fant if he starts 17 games at RT. After all, the 2013 team won a Super Bowl with Bruno Giacomini at RT.
If Williams can’t go week 1 is Olu not the starter? Has he dropped to 3 on the depth chart? That would be somewhat surprising for sure.
Nope, I would assume Olu is the backup. I was making a joke that Olu was replaced by Sundell but in a way that's kind of true.
It is possible they kept Sundell to back up Olu if Williams isn’t ready.. that would kind of make sense, as would waiving him onto the PS once Williams is ready to go.
Yeah, that's what I would assume.
I suspect Mack is establishing the essential qualities he demands if you want a future here. It'll be a high bar and Coach will fight like hell to keep those who own this. Your potential is now a Given, just by still being on the team. If the Vets buy in, watch out!
SEA MORE COMMENTS:
- I didn't want to pile on, but I do not expect that George Fant is going to be very good. We have all these other positions on the line that are kind of distracting us away from RT, but we barely know anything about how Fant has looked. Even if he looked good, nobody wanted Fant as a starter despite starting for the Texans last year. Why was that? But I don't think it matters as much if Fant is below-average if the rest of the offensive line can be above-average. Or Maybe Fant's gonna be good, who knows.
- Scheme should help and Grubb's usage of other positions as blockers should help. Seen some good blocking by TEs and WRs so far.
- Guards and centers especially can break out in year 3, year 4...I'm not at all giving up on guys like Bradford.
I am not too concerned about Fant given he is RT since it is relatively easy to scheme a chip by a RB or TE to help if he is overmatched. If he was at LT, not good.
I agree, concerned about Fant. Off balance too often, gets a little stiff sometimes.
We may not have seen Fant lately, but we do know how Stone Forsythe looked last year.
He was used and abused on pass protection.
Fant's ahead of Stone on the depth chart and I believe 'em! ;-)
I'm sticking with Sataoa eventually becoming a good starter on the O-line. Like you say give him a couple of years to learn the NFL.
The thing about a Good O-line is it actually takes some time for them to learn together to become good. Having a center that actually knows the position and has a very good track record ( assuming health) is a Huge plus. Since I believe that position is as important as LT in the grand scheme of things with an O-line. Go Hawks!
So it’s been 11 years since they’ve had anything like a dominant O-line. When RW was on a rookie deal. But you don’t have to run the trenches this way. Because somehow other teams that have gotten a lot deeper into the playoffs and beyond than Seattle have built their teams around protecting the QB, and then using just about any guy at RB, only 1-2 decent receivers and one star, and a very good to HoF QB. That’s simplifying a lot. And it doesn’t get you all the way to the promised land. But it’s worth pointing out ownership *(Schneider’s) cheapness on OL is a hazard other teams avoid. It’s by no means a cure. The Cowboys have spent heavily for years on this and remain stuck. And because of Joe Burrow Cincy managed to suck at OL for a while and they still did exceptionally well. But Geno isn’t Burrow. He’s not quite as quick with his release or his reads. And when he’s rushed he’ll make mistakes. And no team runs well without at least an OK OL. So it’s a space to continue to watch, as SSJ has rightly pointed out.
Geno also isn't paid like Burrow. They have had him on a favorable contract for a couple years, now, and still had the same philosophy of spending less on the OL. I love your observation about how teams have built contenders. 1st thing that comes to my mind in a comparison is that we have spent so much more draft capital on RB than those other teams. I have been ok with the Charbs pick, but am starting to think maybe we have gone too far in the direction of BPA in the draft or at least waiting too late to address the needs. Maybe Haynes pans out and proves that the 3rd rd is a good place to start, but there are guys around the league playing well that we passed on at some point. We might need to start taking advantage of Geno's friendly contract by investing the savings into protecting him, so he doesn't end up wanting to leave to avoid taking a beating. Maybe we are on that road already with using MM's scheme to help the defense, and can now invest in OL more.
What's the point of having a great OLine when Russ scrambles all over the backfield? How do you design for that? No doubt it pissed off the Big Guys, but then he was pulling TDs out of nowhere and winning last second games. It had Pete riding the tiger. "Scramble left" or Scramble right" wasn't jelling. Why create a pocket if he doesn't stay in it? So Pete said, 'screw it' and OLine skills took a backseat to Russ's antics.
Get the five best target neutralizers out there and let's get them time to work together in game situations. We don't have to pancake the defense every play, just block them enough to effectively run the play at reasonable success rate. Easier said then done...
Well, we kinda did that the last couple of years.... OL rated terribly, not spent on, yet the offense still carried the team to the brink of the playoffs. With the MikeMac hire, we try to squeeze more out of the defense with a new scheme and get a little better on OL each year and maybe we're onto something
Without at least a competent O-line the chances of getting to a SB and especially winning are not very good. The one thing about O-linemen is that they are the most resigned draft choices of any position in the league (That is overall ,not per team.) I believe that says something, if the majority of teams are looking at that and following that trend.
I’m still MUCH more excited about this year’s Oline than what the Seahawks fielded in ‘23. To me, it appears more athletic, and more importantly, healthier (even accounting for Lucas) with a higher upside for performance.
I don’t really care if the team isn’t going to announce the starting RG until game time. We’re talked by about a rookie and a 2nd year player. I get why the coaches might want to see who’s looking best a week from now before settling on who starts.
I think the team has only had one dominant Oline…2005. The SB winning team had an adequate line but to me it wasn’t great. At best, decent. And that’s where I think the ‘24 Oline could net out.
Standard disclaimer: I’m always HUGELY optimistic right before the season starts. Every. Single. Year.
Me too, Rusty. My hope this year is we come out and play smart and clever, then find dominance as the clock ticks down. Last year, we were the baddest kids on the block until we found our own nose broken. Confidence is hard to find when you can't see shit.
Continuity has been talked about on the offensive line the last few years but it sure isn’t practiced.
I expect this to change for the better as the new regime establishes itself, can't do it in 1 year.
MM is ultimately responsible for Hawk O. He didn't "outsource" O to Grubb et al, BUT O line cohesion was part of the Raven, Mich State & UW formula.
PC spent his a lot of roster money elsewhere - it is ironic they used the Bronco draft picks to get left & right tackles AFTER Russ was traded.
Through nobody's fault. Injury dictates continuity, mostly.
I'm still relatively optimistic for 7-to-9 wins. But if everything goes to hell due to lack of personnel, I'm ok with it as long as the new regime maintains their & overall team composure and reloads in 2025.
My dad sometimes reused an old saying, "the more times change, the more they remain the same." As usual, unproven D & O lines, with yet another "guess who" center. A mystery LB corps, except for Nwosu - oh yeah, he's injured. And that's when the D unraveled in 2023.
Except for O skill guys & defensive backfield, Hawk O line, D line & LB talent looks thin in 2024.
There's some talented 1's, the 2's don't have a track record. Expecting no injuries is unexpected!
Lots of hopes that will temper my disappointment if 2024 doesn't repeat the '22 O line fairy tail season
I hope Connor WIlliams miracle recovery withstands the rigors of 17 games, I hope Fant is a good enough RT starter to help cover when the mystery RG gets picked on. I hope Fant stays healthy so I don't have to watch outside rushers blow past Stone Forsythe (& then hear how Geno sucks). I hope Olu gets enough experience spelling Williams to become a pro anchor. I hope Lucas' rehab goes well enough that he wins the RT job in 2025, not counting on 2024 at all.
Re Geno's performance & O line - I think it's the O line that makes Geno better, less so the other way around. Geno's a pocket passer, not an escape artist. As the pocket goes, so goes Geno - '22 good pocket, good Geno. '23 not as good pocket, Geno wasn't as good.
Getting Fant is better than wishing for Lucas, but it's still another wait-and-see O line.
One overall advantage MM & Hawks have is opponents have no film on the 2024 Hawks. Opp game plans for a few weeks, will be educated guesses. If the Hawks mostly know what they're doing like 1st half of Browns pre-season game, and opponents don't know what to expect, it could be worth points and a win or 2!
As an inveterate worrier about the Hawks OL, my biggest worry is whether Tomlinson, Fant (& Forsythe when needed) have the necessary athleticism to deal with younger/faster DLs. Even when (if?) Lucas returns has he permanently lost a step or two in speed or quickness? When I’m optimistic I hope that Haynes is close to NFL-ready (or a possible star rookie) and that the OL’s mix of vets and 2nd/3rd year players might be the right recipe to gel effectively as a unit. A good OL (just in the middle statistically) is most always more than the sum of its parts.
A few of beliefs I have: 1) Seahawks are a jelly donut (soft in the middle) when it comes to the o-line, 2) John and Pete were aligned when it came to the O-line; and 3) whether the hope for a better Seahawks o-line hangs on whether Williams and Lucas can return to form after career threatening injuries. So I have some hope but I am not getting my hopes up. My beliefs are informed by my own eyes and Seaside Joe.
Building an NFL O-line is a tricky business. There is not enough talent to go around, and there are a lot of positions to fill, so teams rarely let the good ones go. When they do hit the market, solid starters (like Lewis) are getting paid like pro-bowl players and difficult choices must be made. If Williams has a good year, we'll have to stay at the top of the center market to keep him. We may have to reset the LT market to keep Cross when the time comes. It could get really expensive really soon, and I don't think JS is unwilling to make those financial commitments to the O-Line, he just hasn't had a player worthy of it in quite some time.
It's like JS's track record of not drafting QBs. He's not opposed to drafting a 1rst round QB, but he's not going to do it for a 3rd round talent. He's not opposed to paying O-linemen, but he's not going to pay a mediocre guard like an established pro-bowl veteran. He's not going to pay $18million/year for a strong safety to play linebacker... oh, never mind that last part.
Everyone seems to forget that much of the 2013 line was manned by JR Sweezy (first year coverted D-Line guy at guard), the infamous Paul McQuistan filling both guard and tackle rolls often due to injuries (he sucked), Breno (another penalty), Max (all pro) and Okung his one time pro bowl year at LT. He was also hurt some that year. James Carpenter hurt often at left guard. They did not excel at Pass Pro and as far as run blocking they had a tank called Marshawn and FB MIke Robinson. The back ups were nothing to write home about either. They were also near the top in penalty yards. Sweezy actually went on to play pretty good for the colts years later at guard. What I'm saying is that Seattle may have a better line this year than 2013 if Williams pans out and Cross takes another step forward which is sounds like his has this year at camp.. The last time Seattle had a notable offensive line was under Holmgren.
Just going by my FEELINGS since I didn't read the article for 100% comprehension, or at least that is what I am feeling, this article is too depressing. That's OK. Life isn't a bowl of cherries. Yet, I am going to ignore this article since it is bringing me down.
It's like having a dentist appointment and dreading that future every time my tongue slides over my broken tooth. What a waste of FEAR. Our OL may end up injured and struggling ... or not. We don't know. Last year is not this year, and we could just as easily surprised to the upside. Until proven otherwise, I am going with that.
With all the offensive talent on this team and a creative OC ( the Mike Leach Air Raid comes to the NFL) an average OL. should be OK.